toyo

Originally posted by Alec§taar: Quote: Originally posted by toyo: Quote: Alec, I am not good about computer as you think. I wish you were here to help me. I need someone to show me step by step. Anyway,thanks for your time to reply my message. Sorry to reply late Alec. Toyo Don't sweat "late-reply", especially on THIS one man... & about knowing everything etc. in this "madness-n-lunacy" like I call it? Heh, think I do too?? Nope... BUT, I guess what I'm trying to say is, you can't really do it... and this is a mistake on the part of Norton\Symantec by NOT supplying users a small tools to remove it! If you read what I wrote above? I searched it on GOOGLE & on the Symantec website for a GOOD HOUR... & turned up nada! (As far as prefab/canned solutions that work instantly via reghacks, or programs for it!) I put out a technical explain (as best as I understand it) on how file deleting works which is pretty ok imo... so you understood it. Then, I took some "educated guesses" as to how Secondary Undelete Bins (like Norton Protected Recycle Bin, SysInternals FunDelete, &/or Executive Software's UNDELETE (which I use) work) so I could try to understand WHAT it is I needed to try to look @ & so could you! Also, largely, that explain probably holds true on undeleters that scan your disks & actually retrieve deleted files w/out secondary bins (real undelete progs, imo). (That's assuming I am right on their mechanics, & I am pretty sure I am... using a filtering filesystem driver of somekind that looks for INT13 calls (assembler call iirc, for disk accesses) & if a delete call is issued? They intercept it and make either copies of the file & save it to another recycle bin (but, unlike Windows one, one that can save files that DOS &/or other programs delete too... Windows recycle-bin? Pretty much only handles what you delete via MyComputer/Explorer OR file oriented dialogboxes afaik)) I know, too much techno-jock b.s., but it doesn't hurt to review my ideas on it, & share them. I might be making a mistake & someone can correct me on it too... I have NO problems w/ that! I grow by it. ANYHOW: Since std. Explorer.exe GUI & DOS console terminal commandline tools like del/rm commands won't destroy the files + folders for RECYCLER\NPROTECT and their, for example, 123. (no file extension) files & say "File cannot be found" as well as the other things I tried above? WELL, this is telling me, those "files" you see under there? AREN'T REALLY FILES! They're just entries in the MFT$ for NTFS filesystms, or entries in the FAT tables for FAT16/32 filesystems that Norton Protected Recycle Bin uses as tracking mechanisms... apps like DOS Window can see the folders, & so can Explorer but NOT the files themselves... they're not "real" and no data on disk there, only address marker... they only exist in the file tracking system tables! Think of it as an address for a home in the phonebook... & then when you try go there? NO HOUSE IS IN FACT, THERE! Norton Protected Recycle Bin uses those oddly named, no extension "Files" to know WHERE & WHAT files have been marked for deletion (via first character of filename being changed to higher ASCII chart characters which typical file mgt. tools cannot see, for good reason - if named this way? They can be "hidden" but also can be unprotected as well iirc from other programs' files using their space if named via HIGHER ASCII letters in the MFT$ or FAT & made vulnerable/overwriteable etc.) as tracking mechanisms of somekind ONLY! So... since the files really DON'T seem to exist on disk, or programs cannot access them you use typically to burn out files/folders? WELL, I'd get out a diskediting program, & remove those 123. no extension (like .txt, .exe etc.) from today's unstructured filesystems' flatfile database tables... & those are: MFT$ - NTFS & FAT16/32 - Fat Table master & backups BUT, that is risky as hell imo, & on the disk this stupid thing resides on here? It's my DATA BACKUP DRIVE! I cannot risk ruining it... no way! I have not tried RECOVERY CONSOLE'S chkdsk /r command... typically, chkdsk IS for checking for bogus MFT$ or FAT table entries & if no file exists on disk really (no house @ address type thinking)? IT CORRECTS THAT! BUT, maybe Norton Protected Recycle Bin is using diff. characters on the first letter of a file rename (how deletes are done really per explanation above) than is usually used by the OS... fooling chkdsk, & yet allowing programs to view them as being on disk when in fact, they're not! Just filesystem tracking table entries, but no data on disk. APK P.S.=> Best suggestion, you may not like it? Format that disk & start again with it... whatever you're doing w/ it! Reinstall if it's your OS & programs drive, & if backup disk like mine for data & work?? Backup your data & reformat! Sure method to get rid of it... but, drastic/radical surgery imo! Sometimes, that is all you have! NOW, like you wrote me? If you find a solution?? PLEASE, let us know what it is... I tried most all I know to torch this folder & it was NO-GO... sorry man, as you see? I don't have all the answers... ideas sometimes, some mechanics & techincal background (however accurate or inaccurate it may be), but not all answers! apk Alec,I think I live with it for now. right click on the cycle bin icon and choose the standard option. Whenever you delete any file it will not show on the "first trash can". Or you can go to Properties then click on Global,choose option that it will purge the files after 1 day (you can set from 1 to 7 days). Hope this will work for the coming files. But the previous files still in the second trash can. Next year I will download Norton Antivirus,I will go to Customize uncheck the protected cycle bin. Doing this you just have standard cycle bin (not protected cycle bin). We have no choice then. Toyo

Originally posted by Alec§taar: Quote: Toyo, per your "PM" to me & what I have found so far: Standard methods & tools WON'T WORK, almost guaranteed, & especially if you uninstalled Norton Utilities/SystemWorks as I had LONG ago here... Personally? I truly don't believe the file entries under [driveletter]:\RECYCLER\NPROTECT are actual files... just Master File Table MFT$ (on NTFS) entries, or on FAT-16/32, Fat table entries. Why say that? Well, every std. delete tool (DOS, & Explorer) say "file cannot be found"... * IMO, the filenames you see under RECYCLER/NPROTECT are just markers/scratch tracking file db entries for locations of sectors that bore the first letter of the filename, and the corresponding file data! To undelete a file is pretty easy if you have a tool that can read/write the MFT$ or FAT directly... which imo, is what undeleters, TRUE ones & secondary bins like these, do! (On REGULAR DELETES, background/how they work in reality - This is how OS' perform FAST deletes really, & like most databases even? NOT A REAL byte-by-byte delete of a file OR its record even, just filesystem table entry rename so std. tools cannot see them anymore & they are then overwriteable then by other programs &/or the Os itself... in fact, this leads to an NTFS filesystem vulnerability where you can make millions of zero-byte files on disk, which you THINK eat no space? They don't, but the NTFS MFT$ table entries do... & they DON'T get really ever removed! Make enough of them? MFT$ itself will flood & fill up your disk & bang - outta diskspace! Be one HELL of a virus code, imo!) ANYHOW - This is why defraggers can f'up undeletes, sectors locations change for files and file locations too. Once you defrag? Other files have access to where a deleted file was (and, it's data STILL really is until overwritten), & other progs can start writing to said area where your 'deleted' file was. Once that happens? File is REALLY gone for most part. During deletes, again, ONLY the MFT/FAT filename first letter is "deleted" (renamed to HIGHER ASCII iirc) & its location on diskdrive really still has the data intact, but is now volatile & subject to overwrites by other progs basically... This method of "deletion" is MUCH faster than secure/true deletes, & good for performance as well as recovery of file data (as long as sector w/ filedata is not corrupted by another prog overwriting it, or a defragger running on said disk file was on). This method of 'delete' is BAD though for trying to burn files that aren't REALLY files like I think these are & only MFT$ or FAT table marker entries (workfiles/trackers for NPRBin). (& thus, I 'theorize' the RECYCLER/NPROTECT filename entries really are NOT TRUE FILES @ all! Just MFT$/FAT table entries @ this point!) Only way to "burn" those? Is to edit the MFT$ or FAT directly... risky as hell if you don't know what you're doing & working on as well as how to use a diskeditor type tool! APK P.S.=> I am glad you got me off my A$$ on this one, I have been meaning to research it TOYO & have been like a madman online for about an hour on GOOGLE & @ Symantec... (Symantec has absolutely SQUAT on this in this situation & just the std. b.s. on how to work with it in Windows itself of any type (9x/ME/NT/2000/XP etc.) only on their knowledgebase... no tool for it either, bad move on their end!) apk Alec, I am not good about computer as you think. I wish you were here to help me. I need someone to show me step by step. Anyway,thanks for your time to reply my message. Sorry to reply late Alec. Toyo

Originally posted by Alec§taar: Quote: Toyo, per your "PM" to me & what I have found so far: Standard methods & tools WON'T WORK, almost guaranteed, & especially if you uninstalled Norton Utilities/SystemWorks as I had LONG ago here... Personally? I truly don't believe the file entries under [driveletter]:\RECYCLER\NPROTECT are actual files... just Master File Table MFT$ (on NTFS) entries, or on FAT-16/32, Fat table entries. Why say that? Well, every std. delete tool (DOS, & Explorer) say "file cannot be found"... * IMO, the filenames you see under RECYCLER/NPROTECT are just markers/scratch tracking file db entries for locations of sectors that bore the first letter of the filename, and the corresponding file data! To undelete a file is pretty easy if you have a tool that can read/write the MFT$ or FAT directly... which imo, is what undeleters, TRUE ones & secondary bins like these, do! (On REGULAR DELETES, background/how they work in reality - This is how OS' perform FAST deletes really, & like most databases even? NOT A REAL byte-by-byte delete of a file OR its record even, just filesystem table entry rename so std. tools cannot see them anymore & they are then overwriteable then by other programs &/or the Os itself... in fact, this leads to an NTFS filesystem vulnerability where you can make millions of zero-byte files on disk, which you THINK eat no space? They don't, but the NTFS MFT$ table entries do... & they DON'T get really ever removed! Make enough of them? MFT$ itself will flood & fill up your disk & bang - outta diskspace! Be one HELL of a virus code, imo!) ANYHOW - This is why defraggers can f'up undeletes, sectors locations change for files and file locations too. Once you defrag? Other files have access to where a deleted file was (and, it's data STILL really is until overwritten), & other progs can start writing to said area where your 'deleted' file was. Once that happens? File is REALLY gone for most part. During deletes, again, ONLY the MFT/FAT filename first letter is "deleted" (renamed to HIGHER ASCII iirc) & its location on diskdrive really still has the data intact, but is now volatile & subject to overwrites by other progs basically... This method of "deletion" is MUCH faster than secure/true deletes, & good for performance as well as recovery of file data (as long as sector w/ filedata is not corrupted by another prog overwriting it, or a defragger running on said disk file was on). This method of 'delete' is BAD though for trying to burn files that aren't REALLY files like I think these are & only MFT$ or FAT table marker entries (workfiles/trackers for NPRBin). (& thus, I 'theorize' the RECYCLER/NPROTECT filename entries really are NOT TRUE FILES @ all! Just MFT$/FAT table entries @ this point!) Only way to "burn" those? Is to edit the MFT$ or FAT directly... risky as hell if you don't know what you're doing & working on as well as how to use a diskeditor type tool! APK P.S.=> I am glad you got me off my A$$ on this one, I have been meaning to research it TOYO & have been like a madman online for about an hour on GOOGLE & @ Symantec... (Symantec has absolutely SQUAT on this in this situation & just the std. b.s. on how to work with it in Windows itself of any type (9x/ME/NT/2000/XP etc.) only on their knowledgebase... no tool for it either, bad move on their end!) apk

Is anyone can help me to delete the files and folders in the protected cycle bins. It seems that there are two trash cans. If I click on properties then select option unerased wizard. It will bring back all the files. I do want to delete these files but no success. Regards, Toyo