License fees.

[Uykucu 0]

Ok guys, am i the only one that is fed-up with thoose licensing rule changes and atrociously high license fees?

 

No matter what i do, or how much my customers or i spend we always seem to be in some violation of EULA. Why can't we write our own SWDLA (Software developer License Agreement) and force them (MS to obey it. And if they don't we will pirate their Software. is taht not fair???

[BladeRunner 0]

You purchase a license for a single product ot be run on a single PC.

This license can be transfered to another PC as long as it's deleted from the old machine.

 

MS have changed their office licensing in that after 31-7-02 you can no longer upgrade the license, instead you purchase software assurance that give you free upgrades in the period for which you buy assurance.

 

I don't know about you but I simply purchase a license once for each piece of software in use.

License costs are as a rule cheaper than retail boxed versions.

 

I am being ripped off how?

[Uykucu 0]

I never buy or sell the retail either. But ripped off i mean selling substandart merchandise. They never seem to deliver what they promise in full there is always this and that.

 

Pirating thing isjust a joke. I wrote SW myself too and i am all for digital rights etc. If you are buying a music CD, you have a chance to listen to it, sample it in total and then go and buy it. Everybody is happy. If there are songs you don't like you just don't listen to them.

 

With Software you have to buy it to find out what it's capabilities are. And if they are not the ones for you or if it does not work perfectly, tough. there is nothing you can do about it. You can't return it. Trials are another joke, all you have to do is go by the word of the company that sells it.

 

(I am talking about the end-users, not us!)

 

And we have to have them, learn them and expected to know everything about them. Also we are supposed to overcome all the shortcomings of their software, since they do not pay any attention to what we say. some kind of poll in the KB is not enough. Even if they do listen, they usually ignore our compaints if it is more feasible.

 

I buy everything MS Releases, with their resource kits and such. And i think we are getting a sour deal in general. Is that not rip-off?

[clutch 1]

I have a MSDN Universal Subscription, and I am on a few different beta testing gigs so I can play with pretty much anything they make without having to buy it first (or use some lame demo). Basically, it works out to "if you don't like it, don't buy it". Very simple, no real complications. Software and music industries have been pounding users for a long time, and once it was super easy for the consumer to get the stuff for free, they freaked out and now they are scrambling to find ways to lock it down. But in the end, *THEY CAN CHARGE WHATEVER THEY WANT FOR THEIR PRODUCTS, PERIOD*. You can't walk up to a car dealership and demand that they lower the price of the car or else you will steal it and feel vindicated in your action (at least most people wouldn't, but some would and already do ). I buy and subscribe to all kinds of software because it's what the companies I work for need, and in the process I try to negotiate the best deal. If there are other places where I can get more for less, then I consider them. But otherwise, you are pretty much stuck. BTW, remember that it isn't *just* MS that has had licensing issues, Oracle has been raping companies for years and is just now starting to get dragged into court for it, and Sun was pounding consumers left and right for their OS/Hardware monopoly (oops, they aren't a "real" monopoly, are they? ) and is now trying to pimp out all kinds of tools and apps to make Java more successful in light of .NET.

[Brian Frank 0]

I use Windows XP: it works, and it works well.

I use IE6 (part of XP): it works, and it works well.

I use Office 2000: it works, and it works well.

 

I've been lucky enough to be able to get a legal copy of Office and Win XP at college for extremely cheap. MS has a connection with them and offers their software at an insanely low price ($5 per CD of any software) so I'm gonna make good with this while I still can.

I've looked into Linux and other supposed 'alternatives' and honestly, there is none. There's a saying that goes "Linux is free only if your time is worthless". Sure Linux is fun for some people, but I like the fact that I do not have to search long and hard to find software over at Best Buy that will work with some form of Windows. Even when I jumped to Win2k, I didn't have that much of a loss, save some DOS based games that wouldn't work. Even then, I could've gotten this stuff working had I played with it a little.

I have tried to find software from MS, but the time I spent searching (maybe because I just suck) was just too much of a waste anyway, especially since I currently can get their software for next to nothing anyway.

 

I'm not saying I like everything MS does, but I have yet to find a software alternative to Windows that I would rather have. Office is working for the times that I need it.

 

Would I like Windows to be cheaper in retail? Yeah, but then I look at stuff like Photoshop and stuff and see that Windows prices aren't so bad.

[DosFreak 2]

While I was growing up and since I was still so young I would copy software all of the time. Since I was the only one in the family who was interested in computers no one else would be bothered to pay $$$ for a program I was interested in. I remember a couple of times waaaaaaaaaayyy back when I'd see a brand spankin' new copy of PC Tools or Qemm and I'd just hint a little to my parent's. (We could backup to floppies faster and easier!) (We don't have to manage our memory config's as often any more!) But paying $40+ for a software tool definetly wasn't on their very long list of NECESSARY items. Unfortunately they were necessary for me and my education in computer software. Which is why I downloaded away starting on my ol' 2400baud, 14.4,28,33,T1 (I gave up on modems back in '98).

 

After dealing with the pain of owning a 286 for 4 lONG years. My parent's finally bought a 486DX4/100. This was a godsend. But it didn't really change the situation that much as far as software was concerned. Finally I was old enough to get a job. Woohoo! With the job I was able to buy computer parts! Unfortunately spending your $$$ on parts doesn't leave much $$ for software. (Not at the levels at which I operate anyway). So I'd still download and copy away just to keep up with the latest stuff.

 

Finally, I moved out of the house and got a real job. I'm pulling in a paltry $1,600+ a month. This fits my habits just fine! Now I could buy Computer Hardware AND Software all I want! Woohoo!

 

So, the "pirating" situation before I got a job was necessary for my computer livelyhood I guess you could say. SO what's it like now?

 

Now.... I'm an American who lives in the UK. Buying games in the UK requires me to go through the exchange rate which can get expensive. I don't really pay attention to that however. Spending massive ammounts of money on computer stuff is not a factor for me.

 

Nowadays the way it works for me is that if someone I know has a game then I copy it if I don't have it. If I go to the store or shop around on-line and I see a game I want...then I buy it. If I go to the store and see that no new games are available then I buy a game that I don't have the original CD for. There is SOO much software out there for a person like me. I'm pretty much the GO-TO guy for work and friends on software and my NT Game Compatibility list would be majorly expensive and almost impossibile to reach it's current level if I'd gone through only legitimate means.

 

As far as work software goes? Like any workplace they are VERY tight with their money. VERY. I NEED to implement certain procedures to make my life easier. Geesh, these guys have checklists upon checklists that I could automate easily with commcercial tools......but they don't wanna spend the money. So my choices are:

 

1. Spend HOURS EVERY SINGLE DAY performing checklists and doing nothing else because I'm doing these checklists.

2. Spend hours upon hours researching and downloading freeware tools and trying to figure out a good way to implement all this freeware to perform functions to automate tasks easier. (Unfortunately I get reamed for not performing the checks (because I'm trying to figure out how to make 'em easier)....and unfortunately no one else in the shop gives a d*** about anything in the shop...unless they get in trouble. :rolleyes)

3. Download trialwire and find the serial. Yep, that's right. Crack it or reg it. "Temporary" (for who knows how long ;( ) but necessary to get some procedures done right. Then when the next year rolls around and they do their Licensing checks they'll quickly realize that they now HAVE to use this software and now they will HAVE to buy it! :evil: Muahahahha!

 

 

GAMES

 

1. If it uses some form of copy-protection then I copy it. Unless it's REALLY good and then I'll download it.

2. If the game isn't readily available to buy then I copy it.

3. If a company made me angry before for whatever reason then I copy it.

4. I'm starting to initate the "If game comes on 3 or more CD's then copy it" policy. Why just today I paid 60+ for Neverwinter Nights. It comes on 3 CD's. How many times did I have to insert the CD's to Install and play the game? 6 TIMES. Yes 6!!!

5. I'm also debating on a CD-Key Policy. I currently maintain an Excel sheet that lists CD Keys for 30+ of my games. That's ridiculous to keep track of. Mabye I'll copy every game that uses CD Key's too.

 

 

Software

1. Download it.

2. Try it.

3. Register it.

4. Archive it.

5. Get around to playing around with it 4+ months later.

6. Find out new ver is out. Repeat steps 1-5.

 

 

So to sum it all up. It is unrealistic to maintain a PURE Computer Software Buying Philosophy if you are in the Computer Business. It is simply impossible. (Before someone retorts that it's not....I betcha that Winzip/Winrar/Winace/PowerArchiver has been sitting unregged on your computer for more than 30 days hasn't it?) For ANYONE in ANY form of Computer related business it is necessary to research ALL alternatives. To research all alternatives legitametly would require massive amounts of $$$ that would just be wasted when the full version could be tried for however long you wished allowing you to decide if this is the software for you and wether you should buy it or not.

 

 

 

 

 

As for the subject of this thread. Would I join a GLOBAL protest? Well, I'm not a protester and I don't like to group (easier to get mowed down that way). So I'll just remain independent of the whole and hopefully continue my practices for some time to come.

[clutch 1]

Fortunately for me, my games list isn't that long (maybe 7 or 8 serial numbers, if that) but my software list is *quite* large (it was setup in an Access DB, and is getting reconverted from an Excel Spreadsheet/Access combo to SQL server/ASP.NET setup because I'm bored) and takes a bit more to manage.

 

Now, whether or not it is "impossible" to get into the computer biz without stealing software (yes, that's what it is, so suck it up) isn't worth debating, as it can really feel that way sometimes since there is so much to learn and yet it's so hard to learn it in the 15-30 day trial periods to get. However, I just want people to admit that it is stealing; you are getting something that you didn't pay for. You didn't "liberate" it, and you aren't "borrowing" it. The concept of "I'm only copying it, and they aren't losing money because I wouldn't buy it anyway" is simple bull$hit. Personally, I don't care if people pirate the stuff they have, but it *does* irritate me when they come whining that they can't get a stupid game to run on their w4rez version of W2K Adv Server with ISA/Exchange 2000/SQL Server 2000 Enterprise running on it.

 

It's easy to take software, so people take it. Then the software companies see this and keep the price high. Now, one counter example to this was "Serious Sam" when it first came out and was $20US. I saw a couple of pics, and when I saw the price I went out and got it (it was on sale for $15US) immediately to try it. I liked the game, and I was far more tolerant of waiting for a patch or two and seeing what the mod community was going to come out with since the game cost me only $5 more than I spend on lunch at work. If more publishers would use "reasonable" price scales, they would see more volume and hence more cash flow. I know, I know, it's a bit wacky, but it just might work...

[Brian Frank 0]

Yeah, Serious Sam is a good price for what you get. It's not a real thinking game by a long run, but it's one of the best games for the money--ever. I want my $50 back for RtCW, tho...grrr. It barely makes the "downloading it for 'testing' " purposes ;(

[Admiral LSD 0]

All I'm going to say on this is that if M$ actually made products that were worth paying money for (IMO) I'd pay for them. Windows XP comes close but at over AUD$600 for the only version worth buying (Professional) M$ can stick it.

[Uykucu 0]

Ok, first i noticed it is the heavy boys only that likes this thread. The pirating thing as i stated b4 was just a joke like concept. And i am totally against it. I do get all the Beta SW as well but clutch, how many times was there a feature on the Beta SW you have tryed, liked which was not there in the final. I can count many occasions. It is not only MS and I am very well aware of it, and despite not being a protesting or whining type of guy, it sometimes gets me.

 

I also agree MS does not have any real alternative, especially as far as w@k is concerned so far. Linux is a joke and requires at least 5 more years before i can even contemplate on it which by that time i am sure it will be couple of years back on compatibility and such.

 

Why did i start this thread.. Here is why. Since January 2001 i have paid USD$197.000 for licenses. This is no small change in any sense, and could have been used for some other purpose such as expanding or like and despite the amount and the picks being the best of all etc. (List contains SQL Enterprise, Exchange Enterprise, So many Advanced servers, i can't count. And talk about W2k Clients) and despite all this money and expertise we have we are still bound by the limitations. And can not work exactly as we want. Security patches are a joke all of us has gone through the code red and other things. Not because we did not know how to use them or made mistakes because SW that we paid so much was in fault. And they knew about it and ignored it.

Thinking, if they hide under the blanket and be realy quiet the bad thing would go away. Well it did not. I lost money! You guys or your company's lost money and work hours. And i have a letter of apology stating they are sory including my compensation check, NO! Do i have a CD that was delivered free of charge, that includes fix(es) to those problems no!.

 

I develop SW myself, did that since i was 16. And aware of how important licensing is and aware it is stealing. So i don't do it.

Of course my first licensed piece of software in my entire life was W95. I just did not have any alternative.

 

How many parents would buy Office XP pro, or .net visual studio to their kids as a X-mas or birthday present??? This kind of copying (stealing) is bound to happen but it can't be helped.

 

BTW my Winace 2.11 is registered

[sapiens74 0]

We spent millions for a Site license for Windows 2000 PRo and Office 2000 Pro for everyone. Microsoft sent a team out to help us plan our Network, so they were a great help.

 

I spend 300 or more a month on average for parts. I spend 150 once a year for a new OS,

 

And I was lucky enough to best test Office XP so that saved me some money.

 

Bottom line, pirates are thieves.

 

**** cost money to develop. Poeple like you and me have jobs that rely on that money.

 

If you dont like what something costs, then dont use it

[BladeRunner 0]

Ummm, no, I was not hit by "Code Red" or any of the other known MS exploits.

Why?

Because it is my job to make sure that we are 100% safe when it comes to potential network attacks.

Part of my job is checking the forum's, speaking to MS, reading around the web to see what the new issues & exploits are.

Then patching servers to make sure we are protected.

 

Fixes appear within a few hours of the exploit being announced which I download and install.

I do not see how this is "a joke" as the fact that I have never been hacked or had our network compromised is testimony to the fact that the system works.

Sounds to me that you are looking for somebody to blame, so I'll give you some people to point your finger of blame at:

 

1. IT Manager and/or Systems Administrator - It is their job to make sure things are secure and safe.

2. Hacking scum - The reason exploits are found is because the 16 year old spotty kid with the unhealthy fixation for Lara Croft is trying his best to find the exploits, if he didn't find them and tell the world your systems would not have been hit.

 

MS, like every other software manufacturer does not have a 100% record as far as security is concerned, however if I can get a fix and be safe within hours of the exploit being found I say this is a working system.

I've lost no time what so ever with reference to downtime because of MS.

MS owe me nothing what so ever, I paied them money for a license this doe not suddenly give me the right to tell them how to operate their business or tell them that unless they drop their prices I'm going to steal their software.

The money I've paid them was so that I can use their software, I use it I pay for it.

The company I work for use the software, we pay for it.

 

I love people who justify software theft, they are the people who make me laugh most on this earth.

For they would be the first people to moan and complain if somebody stole their car, mugged them in the street, broke into their houses - yet the crimes are no different.

"But MS are a faceless corporation"

News Flash - You are nothing but a faceless victim to a car thief or mugger, so it's OK then?

[Admiral LSD 0]

Quote:

I'll give you some people to point your finger of blame at:

1. IT Manager and/or Systems Administrator - It is their job to make sure things are secure and safe.
2. Hacking scum - The reason exploits are found is because the 16 year old spotty kid with the unhealthy fixation for Lara Croft is trying his best to find the exploits, if he didn't find them and tell the world your systems would not have been hit.

8)

NOT the company which let it's software product out the door with potential security exploits? Why isn't it Microsofts responsibility to make sure their products are "secure and safe" when they are released?

[Uykucu 0]

Quote:

8)

NOT the company which let it's software product out the door with potential security exploits? Why isn't it Microsofts responsibility to make sure their products are "secure and safe" when they are released?

Exactly my point. We have never been comprimised b4 code red, and never did again.... Are we at fault for trusting the servers in our domain? Maybe! Are we at fault for trusting MS Security? Yes! I s MS at fault for not foreseeing this? A definite yes.

I did not foresee such an attack to be honest b4 it happened. You did, which is very good for you. But my job is not designing server software, i buy it, use it, not linux or anything else because i trust it (not anymore), it is the standart and compatible.

It is their job to find these holes and fix them not mine! They are not paying me for it, actually i am paying their salaries. When you buy a microwave dinner, you don't expect it to render your microvawe inoperable do you?

BladeRunner maybe you should start your own SW development or send your CV to MS. They can use a guy like you in their security section

I think this thread has the possibility of going till the end of time.

[clutch 1]

Umm, I wasn't compromised by CR or CR2 either, but that was because I had the HiSecpol template in effect, and then later I started using URLScan. Either of these negated the effect of these lame attacks. In addition, both were available from MS for free AND before the attacks happened. Not to mention that the documentation repeatedly stated not to install components that weren't needed, and to disable ISAPI filters that were not used (both of which wound up having the problems). It's just a shame that MS made their server OSs so easy to administer, or else we wouldn't see so many poorly administered systems out there that can be exploited. Much like you got hit once with CR, and not again, MS got burned on this as well with IIS being installed and not managed (along with other components) and .NET server will have everything disabled by default, and will guide the admin through proper configuration by assuming the person has no idea what he/she is doing. Kind of a step back for those of us who know how to administer these boxes, but I can't blame them.

[sapiens74 0]

Clutch and Admiral LSD said it best.

 

When you manage you own Domain, in a very large enterprise situation you have a wealth of information and resources available to you. Microsoft sends out bulletins 1 months or more before an exploit is actually taken advantage of. We never got hit with anything. We had our servers patched the day the Security bulletin came out.

 

Hackers have compromised every OS, and If you put 50 Million Linux boxes up you would have more Linux exploits as well. Like clutch says, Windows servers are so easy to manage, companies let poeple who are not qualified run thier Networks.

 

We ran 1 PDC and 3 BDC's in Korea, mind you this was a DOD network with restictions, and the first thing we did was uninstall IIS. There is half the battle right there. A lot of idiots leave it on there even though they aren't using it.

 

Microsoft has gone out of thier way to make a balance of easy to use and secure servers. Funny how secure they are when managed properly.

 

And on top of that to use that as an excuse to steal software is just plain Bullshit. If you don't ****ing like MS products then don't use them. Why in the hell would you ***** about the cost then say the software is a POS only to steal the damn thing?

[clutch 1]

Quote:

Why in the hell would you ***** about the cost then say the software is a POS only to steal the damn thing?

LOL