Will sanity prevail.....

[felix 0]

.....or will we have Peace at Any Cost?

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,482-543296,00.html

 

 

Quote: "Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings, they did it by killing those who opposed them"

My response to that is to pose this question: Why did Rome fall despite having such an imposing army?

[clutch 1]

You know, it's always nice to hear a political opinion from a country that throws tons of cash into supporting royalty when they have a parliament while they can't be bothered to infuse a large amount of resources in Ireland or simply get out. Oh, and we will always have the Falkland Islands now won't we? Personally, I think the effort should have been sunk into killing bin Laden. But, for some reason he can't be found (although I think someone in the US or NATO is holding back for some reason, because I would think we could get him). In any case, I have lived on military bases for half my life, and have been exposed to that way of life. However, I do think that it has been handled too agressively in some cases, while in others just flat poorly.

 

So felix, what do you propose? If someone had several airliners filled with people from your country and used them to attack and kill many more of your countrymen, how do you think you and your country would deal with that? We may have gone off the deep end, but it seems that some other countries have been willing to join us...

 

Oh, and if you live in the UK and take offence; don't. This was directed at the author of the article moreso than anyone else.

[felix 0]

Firstly I will say that the following is not directed at any one person in particular. I say this so nobody feels I am having a personal go at them. I also state that I am not a student of politics or history and my opinions may possibly be tainted by mass media hype.

 

From my perspective, this possible war is only the second war in Australia's history NOT to have bi-partisan support from our government. The first was Vietnam, which in Australia was not a popular series events (I deliberately make no reference to any other country at this point). Also, a majority of educated people, are not in support of this war. I make a distinction here as I work in a small council and find that generally the more people are educated the more moderate their views and the less likely they are to base their opinions on irrational fears of colour, race, religion or political denomination. However there are exceptions. You will find many people who have done no education past high school to believe that we would nuke the entire region as they fear what they don't understand.

 

To your point about how I and my country would react to an attack of our people on our own soil.

 

To be honest I don't know. I would like to say "WE wouldn't be in such a situation if we just kept our nose out of others business" however that is a simplistic answer. I do think that the western world's attempt to push their value system on others is so far from being acceptable it's not funny. The majority of us do not and will never understand why people tolerate the political systems they live under. Do we have the right to demand they change just to ease our conscience.

 

The hatred the US faces from some cultures is because of continual attempted interventions in the operations of their countries. Not every culture adapts to westernisation as well as Japan did under the protection of the US after WW2 and nor do they wish to. This is not saying that Japan did it by choice either, it is just how the situation played out.

 

I'm going to say this now - If Australia is attacked, it will be because we are tagging along behind the US. There are and have been tensions between Australia and Indonesia for years but aside from some violent demonstrations we remain fairly unscathed. We have had disagreements with China over Taiwan but were not targeted. For those of you who have met Australians, you will know, we will make our point through a strong argument and await a response. We don't have the strength or willingness to force someone to accept our opinion. Plus we are far too laid back.

 

How do we know that we haven't been attacked. If you see some of the fires our country deals with you will understand where I'm coming from.

 

Australians as a whole are not so self-centered to believe that everyone wants to be like us. If you look at our micro-cultures you will see that parts of our cities resemble "the old country" whichever country that is, not just ChinaTown but standard suburbs that hae gained the culture of old.

 

From my expereinces of American students at Uni, I have to say that as a population there appears to be serious blinkering to the rest of the world and the number of fuck-ups in American foreign policy over the years. It seems that only the successes make the 6pm bulletin on CNN. All Americans know that Vietnam, Panama and Cuba turned out bad, but other than Politics and History students, how many know why?

 

Vietnam turned out bad for Australia too, but we don't harp on about it. East Timor was a fuck-up for us 20 years ago but we don't harp on it. The treatment of the Indigenous Population of the land was horrendous up to and including the 1980's and it continues. Even our treatment of the poor bastards who seek refuge of this great country are treated just as badly as in the places they leave. All countries need to look at their own problems before passing judgement on other countries. Australia has the following as a start: public health care, drug abuse, racial intolerance, welfare, treatment of the Indigenous Peoples, acid-sulfate soils, dry land salinity and so on etc. Why SHOULD we commit our resources to fight to secure the oil? If we wanted our own Iraq-style issue we could go off and attack Nth Korea to prove a point.

 

To finish what probably reads as a colletion of ramblings I say this:

If Sydney was attacked in similar style to NYC I imagine the population would demand justice be brought to the perps and thier organisation, however Australia is not geared military wise to attack anyone other than New Zealand we would have to be satisfied with a joint investigation with the country or countries where these people were and hope that they would be caught, what more can we do. We can't kill, wound or disposses everyone who shares their belief system or political persuasion and say "that'll show 'em" because it just pisses people off and makes them determined to strike again. You can't justify an attack as preventative, terrorism is reactive, not proactive so they will always want the final say.

 

I'm done.

Clutch, If any of this diatribe appears directed at you, it's not, I'm actually picturing the leaders of both the US and Australia and wishing they could rethink what could be a grave mistake.

[sapiens74 0]

My best friend is spending 2 weeks here in Hawaii after just leaving Afghanistan after being there a year.

 

He may very well have to go to Iraq, following a war.

 

Not to mention my wife may very well go as well.

 

Most of us in the Mililtary community in the US, know that Iraq was spared complete occupation only after an agreement was made to destroy weapons and allow inspectors.

 

They pretty much thumbed thier noses at the UN for 11 years now, and add the fact they directly support terrorism in Isreal, and may or may not have a link to Osama.

 

It takes roughly 1 small bread sized container of Antrax to kill 500,000 troops.

 

With only 200 inspectors, finding anything is a task.

 

I honestly pray for peace, and hope we avoid a war. I don't want to be alone with an infant son.

 

But sometimes the right thing to do, isn't the easiest, or the most popular thing. BUt when and if the time comes to stand against Iraq, I hope we hit hard and fast, and limit the civilian casualities.

 

My biggest concern is the Iraqi poeple. THey have suffered enough.

 

BUt as One Iraqi Defector put it on Donahue "We would gladly give our lives to be free from oppression"

[Mr.Guvernment 0]

Quote:

The religious cant that will send American troops into battle is perhaps the most sickening aspect of this surreal war-to-be. Bush has an arm-lock on God. And God has very particular political opinions. God appointed America to save the world in any way that suits America. God appointed Israel to be the nexus of America’s Middle Eastern policy, and anyone who wants to mess with that idea is a) anti-Semitic, anti-American, c) with the enemy, and d) a terrorist.

God also has pretty scary connections. In America, where all men are equal in His sight, if not in one another’s, the Bush family numbers one President, one ex-President, one ex-head of the CIA, the Governor of Florida and the ex-Governor of Texas.

yeah. is all about god - god said this, god said that! blah blah blah! - i love how they bring religion into it to make all seem right! - dam politicians.

[jimf43 0]

Quote:

You know, it's always nice to hear a political opinion from a country that throws tons of cash into supporting royalty when they have a parliament while they can't be bothered to infuse a large amount of resources in Ireland or simply get out. Oh, and we will always have the Falkland Islands now won't we? Personally, I think the effort should have been sunk into killing bin Laden. But, for some reason he can't be found (although I think someone in the US or NATO is holding back for some reason, because I would think we could get him). In any case, I have lived on military bases for half my life, and have been exposed to that way of life. However, I do think that it has been handled too agressively in some cases, while in others just flat poorly.

So felix, what do you propose? If someone had several airliners filled with people from your country and used them to attack and kill many more of your countrymen, how do you think you and your country would deal with that? We may have gone off the deep end, but it seems that some other countries have been willing to join us...

Oh, and if you live in the UK and take offence; don't. This was directed at the author of the article moreso than anyone else.

Sorry, but nationality aside, John le Carré has hit the nail right on the head. What was done on 911 was horrible, but, what is being done by the bush administration is even more despicable.

[Jerry Atrik 0]

all political opinions aside

it is neet to read what other countries think. puts an entirely different spin on things.

[clutch 1]

Quote:

To be honest I don't know. I would like to say "WE wouldn't be in such a situation if we just kept our nose out of others business" however that is a simplistic answer.

Now this is a statement that I love. It would be wonderful if we could wash our hands of world affairs, yet we still have foreign governments asking us for help on a daily basis. I have seen the leadership of Egypt come to our soil and ceremoniously pick up aid packages (I was on the White House lawn for one such event with the G. Bush Sr.) while people in Egypt were burning US Flags and effigies of our President. Now please, correct me if I am wrong, but I haven't seen very many countries begging for Australia's aid in either a financial or economic sense in the last 10, 20, or 50 years. So, I guess being able to say "we wouldn't be in such a situation...", simplistic or not, would be wonderful.

Personally, I would love to see other countries pick up the slack, as I would rather focus our money and resources on our own internal issues. Yet, hated or not, who's to say that the wouldn't be worse without what we've done in the past? The last war that we delay entry on was WWII, and that's because we left it as "their problem". Then, the war came to us and we had to kick some ass. Afterward, we adopted a policy to get involved earlier to limit the damage that could be done if the threat could involve the US or its alies.

Again, I am not for war, or run around carrying a gun like it's thed old west with some people in other countries seem to think we do. However, I don't care for the attitude that many people in the world have about us, and then turn around and have the balls to ask for help. I'm sick of it, and would rather they left us alone. If there's nobody asking for help, then there's no reason to help them.

[felix 0]

I'm pissed now.

I spent ages writing a reply and the bloody session timed out.

I'll have another go at lunch time.

I should always remember to copy to clipboard before I submit.

[felix 0]

Quote:

Now please, correct me if I am wrong, but I haven't seen very many countries begging for Australia's aid in either a financial or economic sense in the last 10, 20, or 50 years.

Having been in the US during late September last year I can understand how you would not have seen or heard about how Australia does help other countries. Your news services seem to have a massive aversion to covering non US-positive news to the point that I had to find BBC on some random cable station to see some news about SE Asia and Africa where there are trouble spots just as bad as Mid-East.

Australia does not have the economy to support massive aid programs as our population is only 19million, not 250+million. Our economy and military do not have the capacity to deal with such a demand, though our Spec Ops (SAS) are the best in the world, so say the SEALS.

Over the last 20 years or so Australia has helped (without any research):
UK - Foot & Mouth assistance
USA - Pine Gap facility which is a nuclear target BTW
Fiji
Soloman Islands (& Other Pacific Islands)
East Timor
Taiwan

I am concerned that people are taking this discussion personally. I have an opinion and so do you and they are different, and I respect your right to have a different opinion. My reasoning is firstly our smaller ecomony and military cannot support a war, secondly our close neighbour is the largest Muslim nation in the world and are partial to getting pissed off and we have a tenuous alliance at the moment, thirdly I don't like the idea of a nation suffering because of the desire to destry one individual or a small percentage of the population, fourthly, The UN has not yet sanctioned a war and finally both sides of the Australian Government of elected representatives cannot agree on this plan.

I now ask if the UN could be given the opportunity to inspect all US military and civillian research facilities for weapons contrveining UN regs inc Area 51 and Vandenburg. If this was to happen and such was found, does that give Canada, Mexico and Russia the right to form a military alliance to depose the US government? The US has shown a great disregard to many previous UN policies, what is to change now?

Many of the readers of this board have family etc in the Armed Services and feel a personal part of this situation. I now ask you to think about the bloke who is sitting in the cafe in Baghdad thinking about how his home and family were destryoed by a loose bomb in GW1. Do you not think that he could be so angry that he would want to join an organisation that wants to take revenge. 9/11 was a terrorist attack and innocent people died. GW1 was a sanctioned military action and innocent people died in similar fashion. Terrorist groups are reaction to a perceived injustice.

I am not a member of the armed service. My service to my country is my membership of the 70,000 strong Volunteer Rural Fire Service in which I am a deputy captain. The last member of my family to be in military service was my grandfather in New Guinea in WW2. Any school kid knows that the US saved our ass in WW2 and we are reminded of it every time we discuss military actions with Americans, even at Uni, however that was a different time we were directly threatened, so was asked for help defending the country we stole from the Indigenous People 200+ years ago, Ironic isn;t it?

I'm done for now.

[sapiens74 0]

THe world has and continues to ask quite a lot from us. We are the most giving nation on the planet. We give aid and help to more countries, including forgiving of debts. medical aid, and military aid.

 

My wife served 7 months in Bosnia.

 

With all due respect why isn't there German, or Italian, or French, or Spanish troops in Kosovo and Bosnia. The majority come from the US.

 

We should respect world opinion, especially those that have continually been at our side, but with all due respect our European allies, including Australia, are not equal when sharing the costs.

 

So consider it like a shareholders meeting, when the US who owns majority stock has a bigger say then the minor shareholders.

 

Just the reality of it.

We Lead, we pay, we fight , we give.

 

Nobody complains when we hand out checks.

[clutch 1]

I see you are into peace, no matter the sacrifice, and that's cool. I have already said that I would love to have the US out of every country out there that hates us, but their governments keep dragging us back in. The only exception that I have seen was Cuba (I lived there, GTMO Bay), and at the time the gov't there was so bent on our staying that when the lease was signed the only legal way it could be broken was if both parties agreed to us leaving. The previous government wanted us there badly, and so we stayed. On an almost daily basis people risked their lives to come to the US, as they do from Haiti, Mexico, and other countries. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's because they hate us?

 

Because we have such a large number of nations represented in our citizenship, we our invaribly asked by our citizens to help out their country of origin when their gov't comes looking for help. Now, as you have said, your own country is *not* large enough to entertain requests for money and military aide, so you really can't judge us since you don't know what you would do yourselves, now do you? Would you turn them away and say "that's your problem, live with it"? Could you? We help other countries; we're good at it.

 

As for news being biased, it would seem that most coverage of the US is of how we are taking over some other nation or letting MS take over the world with bad software. But we are doing a great deal of good things internally and externally, but that wouldn't sell newspapers and bring high TV ratings now would it? Now you bring up the bit about your SAS, to that I wonder "SFW?". The Israelis have the best Air Force in the world, and they are doing it with modified US warplanes and equipment all the while still requesting aide from us. Also, you seem concerned about how WWII is always brought up when talking to us nosey, horrible Americans. Well, I live in a neighborhood in Wisconsin that was setup as low-cost housing for US Vets in the late 40's, and I am surrounded by people in their late 70's and early 80's that still remember that war *very* vividly, and how they had to watch friends and loved ones die while they wondered if they would make it out alive themselves. All of this, while being thousands of miles away from home "helping" some people out in a country they might have never known existed at the time. But then again, we're just a big bunch of a$$holes and bullies right? This is why you will get reminded, and *continue* to get reminded about WWII when talking to Americans. If you don't like it, switch the topic or stfu.

[felix 0]

I think we should end it here before something regretable is said.

If I have caused offense, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention.

At least everyone who took part has the intelligence and integrity to debate and discuss without resulting in the use of petty flaming and name-calling.

For those of may who will be directly affected by the impending, God (in whatever form) bless and return you and/or them safely.

[sapiens74 0]

Good people can have a heated debate without name calling.

 

IT should never get personal. I think the majority of us just want the right thing to be done. And debate is where it starts.

 

I'm also thankful to have the right to express myself.

 

 

 

they get you ready to fight

the fuse is ready to blow

you shoot to kill on sight

they call you g i joe

you never wanted to stop

the smell of burning flesh

the hero marches alone

across the highway of death

 

it's not a matter of rights

it's just a matter of war

don't have a reason to fight

they never had one before

you're just a killing machine

he's come to take you down

we take the gas that we need

and pump the blood on the ground

 

they're gonna set you up

so they can take you down

they're gonna suck you dry

they've left the blood to be found

they're gonna rip you apart

you're gonna burn at the stake

cos when it's time to collect

it's only heroes who pay

 

Never better said

[Jerry Atrik 0]

isnt irac still shooting at our planes ?

[sapiens74 0]

You ever seen two brothers fight?

 

My brother and I would grab the frist thing we could when fighting.

 

It always got ugly.

 

God Help the person that messed with him tho

 

Anyways.

 

Most of the Arab world wants him gone.

THey just don't want Scud's comgin their way if he doesn't.

 

He still has yet to account for tons of Bio, and chemical stuff the inspectors documented, and I think will be the nail in the coffin.

 

I hope, I really do, that we avoid a war.

IF we don't I hope we all pray for everyone involved, including the civilians who may lose their lives.