Let's face it

[YuppieScum 0]

I'm glad that other members are posting things like this. FWIW, the following should be noted:

 

Fact: W2K is still beta.

Fact: Many IHV's will not release ANY drivers until after W2K goes GOLD.

Fact: The product codenamed "NETPTUNE" will be a convergence product - a consumer OS based on the common NT kernel. This was going to be "Millenium" but MS decided not, mainly due to a lack of WDM drivers.

Fact: MS want IHVs to write WDM drivers.

Fact: WDM drivers (possibly with simple recompile) will run under both Win9x and W2K.

 

maybe i'll add more later

[DrSchmoe 0]

Sure, Neptune will be the convergence product, but the reason for scrapping Millennium doesn't necessarily have to do with WDM support (that would be thinking like a techie...)

 

Rather, now that Jim Allchin is in charge of the unified Windows division he is looking to keep development and operating costs at a minimum. Maintaining two code bases doesn't do that. Sticking to one code base also helps improve quality of the remaining product by concentrating talent.

 

In essence, Microsoft is starting to "circle the wagons" at the competitive threat of Linux (many claim potential DOJ remedies are the reason for the reorganization, but I dispute that). Furthermore, hardware vendors can focus on developing one set of drivers, thereby increasing driver quality and the perceived value of Windows.

 

Fact: MS wants IHVs to write *stable* drivers =)

 

In theory, WDM drivers do not require recompiling to run on 2K or 9x, however, this only works for the sound and printer subsystems. WDM driver support for video was not included in any current non-beta iteration of 9x (to the best of my knowledge).

 

Back to work...

DrSchmoe

 

[This message has been edited by DrSchmoe (edited 15 December 1999).]

[Tim Bazzinett 0]

Peaje, Win2k is for the consumer. Why, stability!! I work at a bank where the majority of the workers there own personal PC's. Most of them use the computer not for games, but for speadsheets, email, and internet. Stabilty is the reason why they should get win2k. Everyday, I troubleshoot the win9x based machines due to the bad kernel they are based on. But rarely the windows NT machines. Face it, the only good thing about the win9x kernel is the price and the ability to run games well. But if I typing a lengthy report that due on the bosses desk soon, I'll do it on my win2k machine. I dont need a win 95 crash to happen. When I go online, like what I am doing right now, the TCP/IP stack on the win2k is much better than win 95 even after the msdun1.3 upgrade. Yes, there needs to be better drivers made, but that will come in time. It will soon when the D3d will be a dead API,now that GLIDE is now open source. And glide runs great on my Voodoo2 with win2k.

[nam ng 0]

I've had an SMP box at home since '95 with OC'ed P90s, have tried any games on hand at first chance... I admit don't know anymore the quality of GEEKs now a day, for those crying over W2K betas and SMP, I shed you a tear... SNIFF..SNIFF...you gonna want me holding your hand too???

[YuppieScum 0]

DrSchmoe - don't forget that an OS core convergance has been the MS plan for then last 5+ years - pretty much since the first version of NT.

 

Don't regard the recent change of management as a change of core direction.

[DrSchmoe 0]

True,

 

However, when MS initially planned the convergence it was to increace their margins. At that time, I seriously doubt they ever saw a competitve threat.

 

I think scrapping Millennium and their reorganization was more reactive to Linux. Perhaps they pushed up the timetable a bit.

 

Besides, we already know that the system requirements for Neptune will be significantly steeper than Millennium (which I am assuming based on the requirements of 2K).

 

A lot of consumers might not be happy since their machines will not be "worthy." At least 9x runs fairly well on low end pentiums (non-MMX, assuming 32MB min.)

 

Anyway, has anyone tried Win 3.11 lately? I installed it to have some fun. I think I booted in 2-3 seconds. By the time my CRT was warm, the desktop was already up. It makes me want a solid state drive =)

 

DrSchmoe

 

[This message has been edited by DrSchmoe (edited 15 December 1999).]

[SHS 0]

Give OS/2 Warp 4 a try on fast P2 300a or better HEHE 12sec on 300a before I overclock it 450a now it 8sec wow I never saw warp move that fast hehe yup win3.1 shore dose fly on P2 one blink holy cow I'am already in win3.1

[peaje 0]

Tim Wrote

 

"I work at a bank where the majority of the workers there own personal PC's. Most of them use the computer not for games, but for speadsheets, email, and internet."

 

Well Thats what im talking about. Of course is a superb OS for running aplications internet and FOR WORK. What im talking about here is for the home consumer. Of course you can bring work at home but when you use your computer at home is mostly for entretaiment.

 

Thats why running games smothly is so important at home. Win2k is not good at that and probably wont be (remember NT SUCKS FOR GAMING?).Even if it comes with PNP or DirectX 7. We really have to wait to see if MS will support this OS for Gameing.

 

As the fact that W2k is still on Beta, hehe let me tell you that wont be lots of changes from the latest beta to the final product. Windows 2000 will still be buggy when it hits the market.. you can bet on that.

 

Remember NT? 6 services packs.

 

I dont know if MS will do services packs for Windows 2000 or OSR for it like Win95 or Win98 did with their OSR2 and SE editions.

 

That still a big question.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by peaje (edited 15 December 1999).]

[RoGuE 0]

ok...how about this....w2k isnt intended as a gaming platform, but it is{oops i guess microsoft made a mistake}, i have all my games running on w2k with the exception of some lame ass games that are specifically written for winblows 98, yes your right, win98 boots up real fast but thats to make up for ALL the times you have to reboot, my w2k machine is only restarted when i install a new app or upgrade to the next build. so youre a beta tester? SO, do you know how many beta testers there are out there? in the scheme of things your not but a pimple among a million pimples. just becuase your signed up for microsoft's beta testing program doesnt make you an expert on the direction that microsoft is going....tell me what do they do call you up at night and ask: " hey peaje this is bill, do you think we ought to make w2k a gaming platform? { and i picture you scratching your head and saying: "well bill, remember windows nt? it sucked for gaming." dont you think there is a reason they dont have the WORKSTATION tacked on the end of windows2000? this os is a broad spectrum os. i have installed it on all of my machines but one...what i really like about it is after i get done working up my weeks expenses or a couple of spreadsheets on a couple of computers i have going out during the week, i fire up q3 and play a few rounds on the internet...hmmm..sounds like a real crappy gaming platform to me. guys like you will come in here and discourage ppl from using this on their home machines when it is a perfectly fine os for home or office use....so just give it up, just about everybody here is using it for biz and gaming applications and its performing well i might add. for every guy that comes in here with problems there are a dozen that are running it problem free.

this is my opion and i could be wrong

[ThC 129 0]

I agree with the concensus Win2K will be made for games. Why? 1 reason if Win2K wasnt going to made for gaming then why even make a Professional version just make a server and advanced server version, and make millenium work with NT. But since NT is the future kernal for MS OS's you need to remember that some companies will need to have an OS to make their games work with before everything goes to NT hence W2K Professional, the OS for Businesses and Home users. So if 2K wasnt going to made for gaming you would see a bigger market push toward Suckinium the last patch for Windows 98. Also I read someplace that Millenium is just a gap between 98 and the next OS they come out with, and most users WONT upgrade to it. Plus if it wasnt for games there would be no need to advance OSes or Hardware!

[OneHotRS 0]

The stirring conversation is what keeps bringing me back!! There are two issues that I think need addressing

 

1.)"Why release Millenium" - The word you are looking for is Marketing!! Have you seen the price difference between NT and 98? Win2K needs to be out a little while before MS can convince(force) everyone to migrate.

 

2.)When this sucker goes gold, I want drivers that function!! Properly and completely!! That is what beta time is for. If people are too damn impatient to wait for the driver that works, write one yourself and see what fun it is. Me? I'd rather cut them some slack and get a FINAL (STESSED WORD HERE) driver that functions as it should. Your copy of Win2K was FREE!!!! Be happy!! This is why they don't release beta software to the public. Everybodies always in a hurry. My Win2K box runs fine. Still on RC2 and happy. If it blows up, who cares, it's a beta.

 

I'm with Seldzar, lets all get along.

[peaje 0]

As far a i know.. im getting along pretty well. hehehe i love when theres a thread that lots of people are interested in.

 

As far of MS want in the OS industry ,thats still unknown. Are you guys pretty sure that Windows 2000 is what MS really wants?

 

Then you talk about Millennium like just a comercial product.. well i could be.. but.. "what if" Windows 2000 is built with the same idea? people are getting crazy about this whole Y2K stuff.. and everything that has the 2000 logo.. will sell.

 

If MS is pretty sure that Windows 2000 is the NEXT BIG STEP, why are we going to start (i dont know yet if this is sure) NEPTUNE on 2Q of 2000?

 

Remember.. MS is a very comercial well based product company. They know their stuff.

 

So i think that we never gonna get a final Windows in our lifes. Now Windows 2000 is a BIG THING.. lets see what happends in the next 2 years..some other MS OS will be out.. and all of you will focus on that.. and will forget about Windows 2000.

 

It has happend before.. it will happend again..

 

WAO MAN!! hehe i love this forum..

[RoGuE 0]

it looks like everybody is getting along well to me...i think its good to have fun and stirring conversation in these forums. i may get a little carried away sometimes, but, really its all in fun. im sure if i met any of the guys in this forum id hit it off real quick with em. we all have our own views and thats what this is all about. i can tell by reading what peaje has written that he knows what he is talking about. if he had written something that didnt interest me i would have just browsed over and went on. and he is absolutely right, in a year or two we will move on to some other os, whether its ms or whatever.

[Ronin 0]

Well,

 

W2K has gone GOLD!!

 

I'll bet that there are no drivers included for us SB live owners or drivers (that work) for the TNT 2 or Geforce.

 

I'm going to be waiting with baited arms to see when all the vendors release drivers for W2K.

 

I know we won't see it untill Feb so this should give everyone plenty of time to build there drivers.

 

It's funny that it's not going to be released untill Feb, I wonder if that has anything to do with everyone getting driver issues taken care of. Because MS could care less about us gamers.

 

I hope it turns out to be a great OS because GOD knows we all hate 98.

 

...

[Guest]

felt i should let you know a bit of info on Millenium. according to a magazine i was reading, millenium is basically what 98SE was to 98, can you say 98 TE. they pushed neptune up more, and considering not even giving out millenium just doing it like they did with 95 OSR2.1 Only availble with new computers. so go screw yourself off about millenium rules and 2000 sucks and wont be for gamers, with quake 3 in the arena and more smp enabled games on the way, SMP is going to be bigger, and Win2k pro is going to move much higher than NT4 and there is always the 98 was a Service pack to 95 as was SE, NT service packs free, Upgrade from nt4 -> 2000, not free, but a true upgrade. Plus there is stability, i push my system to limits with SMP and without it even in quake 3 i can max stuff out and keep playable framerates... so im all the way for 2k, just not for Creative's drivers, which hopefully will be available for at least beta soon, anyone think of writing them?

[Igor 0]

Win2k is an ok gaming platform but Millenium is still bettter and Millennium is WAY more of an upgrade to 98SE then SE was to 98. I have Mill installed and I get 20 more frames in Q3 with TNT card under it then under 98 or WIn2k. Also the disk performance in Millennium is about 30% faster then under WIn98/95. I know that Win2k is 300% faster with disk access then 98 but that is not the point. Win millennium would make for an awesome upgrade for the average Win98/95 user. Finaly the new system would actualy be FASTER the old one. Windows 2000 still has a few rough edges that need to be worked out before the average Jo can use with without bugging techical support with "stupid" questions.

[MousePad 0]

Igor, Igor, you don't get it. No matter how idiot-proof any software is, there will ALWAYS be people calling TS with stupid questions.

 

Besides, Win Millenium, while faster, will be just as crash-prone as good ol' 95, and 98. And it's not coming out for 6 months after Win2k, right? (can't remember..)I'll just stick to win2000. It has yet to actually crash on me. And everything I love to play runs and runs well..

 

- MousePad

 

------------------

Just once, I'd like to see an elementary particle physicist use *ZOT* when referring to accelerator operations. Is that too much to ask?

[DrSchmoe 0]

About the performance of 2K. It *should* be faster than Millennium for games. The issue is that all the drivers are not optimized, and to this point, I don't think any of them support AGP. Hopefully the manufacturers will have their act together by February. But knowing all of them, I won't get my hopes up (especially my beloved ATi).

 

The lack of drivers for the Live doesn't bother me too much; I have Bose up front, and some horrid Cambridge SBS 50s in the rear (I try to avoid 4 speakers). The EAX is nice, but I haven't been playing all that many first person games that I would miss it.

 

I found an odd bug with the Live WDM: It supports CD Digital, however, there is no way to control the output. I muted the standard CD Audio, and viola CD Digital was playing. I guess that is a halfway good sign, because as I recall, Creative had some big problems getting CD Digital to work with the initial 9x and NT drivers (many memory leaks).

 

I am also getting confused with Millennium. Many reliable sources are saying that they are dumping it, and just as many say that it is still actively in development.

 

I have this strange theory that Microsoft will end up releasing Millennium as "Windows 2000 Personal." If they did anything else, people may be flocking to Win2K Pro with the confusion. I think Microsoft realizes that they have some marketing problems, so I am really curious how they are going to dig out of the hole.

 

And I have more. I couldn't resist...

 

Just saw this on Microsoft.com about Win2K.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/guide/professional/overview/reliable/

 

Quote:

With its support for Plug and Play, Windows 2000 lets users easily add hardware devices such as scanners, DVD players, and speakers without rebooting.

 

When was the last time you plugged in a set of speakers, only to need to reboot your computer???

 

They should have added: "With its amazing relaibility, Windows 2000 Professional will even operate when you are using your dishwasher!"

 

... time to get to work, and off my soapbox

 

[This message has been edited by DrSchmoe (edited 17 December 1999).]

[Ronin 0]

Direct Quote from a review Cnet.com did on the final release of W2K.

 

 

But hey what do they know.

 

Read the whole review at http://www.cnet.com

 

 

"Windows 2000 isn't for everyone, however. If you want a new OS for gaming or surfing the Net, you'll be better off with Windows Millennium, the Windows 98 replacement due out the second half of next year. And even if Windows 2000 is up your alley, you still have to wait a couple of months to get your hands on a copy. If Microsoft doesn't run into any snags, the boxed version of Windows 2000 will hit store shelves and start shipping with PCs on February 17, 2000, two months later than Microsoft had originally promised."

[peaje 0]

Windows 2000 or Windows Millennium will hit the market with bugs.

YOU ALL KNOW THAT!

 

It is good for all of us to get these upgrades from time to time. Because of the left off bugs of the latest OS released to the market.

 

I will say that windows 2000 is a great upgrade from NT4. Windows Millennium too as well.

 

I havent seen a OS with the Win9x kernel more stable than this Millennium.

 

But the 2 OS are direct it to 2 diferents consumers. I know you can play DVD's On Win2000, play games ,PNP ,etc,etc,etc. But these OS is not address for entretaiment. YOU ALL KNOW THAT!

 

I think you guys will be more please with NEPTUNE.

 

That will be what we ALL ever want it on any MS Os. Win9x Gaming and Multimedia Performance with the Power Of NT.

 

I think this is the same but backwards of what MS did with Win98 and Windows 2000.

 

They want it to give to Windows 2000 what they should did at a very first place when they released it.

 

Im testing Millennium and we are a few bugs away to make this product almost perfect.

 

The stability of this OS is away Much better than any Win95/98/Se. I can tell you that.

 

OH!! by the way since im testing millennium i made the "CLASS OF 2000" of MS.

 

TOP 200 Beta testers these year.

 

So please.. Congratulate me!!

 

LOL!!

[peaje 0]

Windows 2000 or Windows Millennium will hit the market with bugs.

YOU ALL KNOW THAT!

 

It is good for all of us to get these upgrades from time to time. Because of the left off bugs of the latest OS released to the market.

 

I will say that windows 2000 is a great upgrade from NT4. Windows Millennium too as well.

 

I havent seen a OS with the Win9x kernel more stable than this Millennium.

 

But the 2 OS are direct it to 2 diferents consumers. I know you can play DVD's On Win2000, play games ,PNP ,etc,etc,etc. But these OS is not address for entretaiment. YOU ALL KNOW THAT!

 

I think you guys will be more please with NEPTUNE.

 

That will be what we ALL ever want it on any MS Os. Win9x Gaming and Multimedia Performance with the Power Of NT.

 

I think this is the same but backwards of what MS did with Win98 and Windows 2000.

 

They want it to give to Windows 2000 what they should did at a very first place when they released it.

 

Im testing Millennium and we are a few bugs away to make this product almost perfect.

 

The stability of this OS is away Much better than any Win95/98/Se. I can tell you that.

 

OH!! by the way since im testing millennium i made the "CLASS OF 2000" of MS.

 

TOP 200 Beta testers these year.

 

So please.. Congratulate me!!

 

LOL!!

[BeTa2K 0]

>>>Windows 2000 or Windows Millennium will hit the market with bugs.

YOU ALL KNOW THAT

 

Tell me an OS that doesn't have bugs.

 

------------------

-BeTa2K

[antrant 0]

>But the 2 OS are direct it to 2 diferents

>consumers. I know you can play DVD's On

>Win2000, play games ,PNP ,etc,etc,etc. But

>these OS is not address for entretaiment.

>YOU ALL KNOW THAT!

 

No, we don't know taht. win2k is an all-purpose OS, and if I can use it for those things , I will.

 

>That will be what we ALL ever want it on

>any MS Os. Win9x Gaming and Multimedia

>Performance with the Power Of NT.

 

Isn't that what already got with win2k?

 

>Im testing Millennium and we are a few bugs

>away to make this product almost perfect.

 

Since the business section and cosnumer section just was merged, people predict the Millennium project will be closed.

 

>The stability of this OS is away Much

>better than any Win95/98/Se. I can tell you

>that.

 

that Don't say much. I've hear dabout all the new features and how buggy they are and how they screw up the system. not that I've tested the OS myself, though...

 

>OH!! by the way since im testing millennium

>i made the "CLASS OF 2000" of MS.

>TOP 200 Beta testers these year.

>So please.. Congratulate me!!

 

Congcratulations

 

 

For the win2k as not being an consumer OS, it already is and will become more and more used by consumers, or better described as the serious gamers. there a re plenty of different consumers out here, some will install win2k at home for work and some games for the kids, others will install it just to get quake3 use both their prosessors.

 

No, win2k will not run all the games yet, the average computer out there is not fast enough to run it, but it's and incredible amount of games that already is able to work with current beta drivers so when Millennium pherhaps get release once, I belve win2k has matured enough to make it obsolete.

 

Don't listen tho microsoft say win2k will not be for consumers, it's just so it wont get that toy-OS feel, we consumers have earned stability and reliability witho out gaming and dvd movies for a lond time now

 

and with the evolution going so fast on the 3d accellerator front, we need a stable environment to develop drivers and games for it.

[RoGuE 0]

here we go again...is this guy an ms employee or what...i ran win mill for about 3 months and it sucked hard...just like win98, all prettied up but crashed worse that win95. the thing im learning about win2k is you can run just about any game in it, and all of my biz apps. all that with hacked and beta drivers. if you were to run a beta driver in winmill you would have to run fdisk, format and start all over again. the dos based oses are on the way out. if winmill makes it to market it will blow my mind. most of my customers are lining up for win2k to be released. stability and great game performance, what more could you ask for?? like ive said so many times before. i NEVER reboot this system. when i was running win98 i rebooted an average of 3 to 4 times a day. how about this? your fraggin your ass off and smoking everybody in the q3 server, all you have is one more frag and your the top dog. SUDDENLY! blank screen. oh, win98 decided it needed to be rebooted again. that os is so frustrating im suprised they even sold a copy of it. so will i buy mill? NO F**CKING WAY!!!!! im to spoiled to running for days without so much as a glitch. i sold the hell out of win98 with my gaming machines and frankly im sick and tired of getting em in on service orders....and usually something stupid, it forgets it has a dvd, or, it decides that the tnt2 ultra in it is really a standard video controller....so im gonna game with win2k and let the idiots fight with mill.

thats my opion and i may be wrong

[DrSchmoe 0]

Bravo, I am in complete agreement with Rogue.

 

I am highly pleased with 2K. I have DVD running, my Live works decently with the WDM, and every one of my games works flawlessly. Sure, better AGP support would be nice, but for the moment I get to blame ATi for that.

 

The install was a snap. My office machines were clean installs (except the servers), at home I was too lazy to reinstall so I decided to upgrade. It literally took 3-clicks to go from 98 to 2K. It was easier than 95 to 98, so I don’t understand why peaje is arguing his point.

 

I would assume the OS is s decent choice for novice users; the wizards and explanations are much better than anything in the 9x series.

 

I am hard pressed to find a reason why MS would release Millennium. I can't imagine 2K would take more than a few months (maybe six) to modify for consumer (i.e. Neptune) release.

 

Hopefully in the future, MS will focus on making the NT Kernel more reliable. It roughly as stable as Linux, but we aren't at Mainframe reliability yet. Windows NT magazine has some interesting insights on this point. If you haven't picked it up, I would highly recommend the "Windows NT Magazine: Windows 2000 Special." Even though they were working predominantly with RC1, they still have some interesting insights as well as some fairly low level discussions on the Kernel, etc.

 

Not to knock on Peaje, but I find his comments rather funny. No offence intended, I just disagree.

 

I can’t comprehend why he doesn’t think 2K has been designed for multimedia and entertainment. We have a Gateway Destination in our conference room, and I loaded it with 2K. The machine does far better on 2K than it did on 98. Furthermore, most of our clients are still in the dark about 2K, so when they see it, it helps further substantiate the “cutting edge” feel that my firm attempts to portray. We always get questions when people see the login screen.

 

Why would I be more pleased with Neptune? It will use the same drivers and software as 2K; the predominant difference is that it will be “dumbed” up for consumer users. Every *single* thing that Neptune can do will also be available in 2K (identical hardware and software support). Which is where my confusion lies… Neptune and 2K will be almost identical, so how can you possibly argue that 2K is not for multimedia and entertainment???? But then again I seriously doubt my arguments will faze Mr. Gibraltar