In The Clear

[jimf43 0]

Some may have noticed that I wasn't posting for a while. Truth is, I was getting real burnt out on supporting newbys who insisted on getting in over their heads with distros that had less than satisfactory hardware support and installation. I was having a conversation with one of the most senior members of the forum and we agree that much of the problem is with Mandrake. I started out with Mandrake 8.x and for the time it was top of the line. I'm not bashing here, but I think something needs to be said in the clear. It's a darn shame, but, what was once a really fine distro has now become a real pita.

 

Personally, I have decided not to respond to problems related to Mandrake any longer. I can't speak for other senior members of the forum, but, it's just to darn counter productive for me.

 

If you're new to Linux, and you want a positive experience, I suggest that you first try one of the bootable distros like Knoppix or Mepis to see what it's all about. In this way you can verify that you don't have any serious hardware problems 'before' you install. When you get to the point of installing to your HD, I suggest that you try Mepis. This is one of the easiest ways to install a build which is fully compatible with Debian and the deb standard. If you want to go with an rpm based distro then Fedora is a good choice. Just stay with the more stable version.

 

More experienced Linux users may like and want to try other distros, but, they 'are' more experienced and , hopefully, know what they're doing. The whole point of this is to make your (and our) Linux experience a lot easier and more positive. We like Linux and want you to share that experience.

[SoulNothing 0]

i agree with you although i never tried any older mandrakes but i have gone through so many dics persoanally my experience is always with instilation then stability although im not currently using linux because of hardware issues i had a bad experience with mandrake 10 it threw me for a loop i switched to slackware and fedora on my older laptop when i hadthe chance

 

my friend hated xp and i mentioned linux and told him it was free he was sitting going through my computer mags and found out about mandrake i let him rummage through my discs and he got a copy i told to go him ahead but itwasnt my favorite anyway whe dropped out of the linux thing in two days i went over took a look somehow it ate his hard drive literally killed it and he said linux sucks and never wants to see it again

 

but mandrake although said as a starting point it isnt that great

 

 

[jimf43 0]

Unfortunately that first experence has a lasting effect. Unlike windows there are many distros (versions) available. Chosing the wrong one can be a major disaster ;-). Right now Mandrake is on top of the list at DistroWatch, so, of course all the newbys want to try it.

 

The other factor is that we are all effected by the 'latest and greatest' compulsion. Everything from the latest hardware and OS to the latest gadgets. 'Gotta have it' can get you in a lot of trouble fast

[Dapper Dan 0]

Jim, your post hits the nail on the head! I am always reluctant to criticize anyone's choice of distro, but the fact is, Mandrake is not the easily installed and user friendly distro I once knew with Mandrake 9.0. 9.1 for me was a great disappointment, and 9.2 was even worse. I couldn't find screens with either, even though I've always used Nvidia cards! "10" seems to be much better in some ways, but is very disappointing in most others. Mandrake 10 is going to continue to disappoint a lot of Windows users who want to cross over and take the red pill.

 

I'll be perfectly honest with new or potential users of Linux: Just because something is new, DOES NOT mean it is better! There are still issues that must be ironed out with the 2.6 kernel. If you want to go with Linux, go with something that at least has some history behind it. Then, once you have the basics down, you can start checking out distros and versions that are more cutting edge. I still use Fedora Core 1, and will continue to do so until it is clear to me that Core 2 is ready for prime time.

 

Mandrake 9.0 was VERY stable and solid. I used Mandrake 9.0 for a long time. I am now using Fedora Core 1 because it became evident to me that MDK 9.1, 9.2 and 10 were just not as stable and user friendly.

 

If you want to go with Debian, Mepis is very easy to install, and it's hardware detection is among the best there is. To any new user who is thinking about Linux: I would recommend staying away from Mandrake 10 for at least another few months until it is relatively "ironed out."

 

Please consider going with Fedora Core one, Suse 9.0, or in Debian, go with Mepis or Knoppix.

[martouf 0]

I thought the trouble with late-model Mandrake is when a new user encounters the bright

shiny packaging on a store shelf it's found with the words DON'T PANIC inscribed

in large friendly letters on its cover. This, in turn, encourages an unfounded confidence.

 

But seriously, no one ought to experiment (and believe me, a first try is an experiment!)

with a new OS without either using a 'test dummy' system (must not contain any data you

wish to preserve) or a system where you've imaged the whole disk (disaster protection).

 

The failure in any distro marketed for the newbie is to not make it clear enough what

the newbie should do for themselves to create a 'safe zone' for experimentation.

 

One should also keep in mind the financial condition of a company-backed

distro - the Mandrake bankruptcy was not likely to have a positive effect

on their distro. Adding new features or improved features apparently was not

kept high on the priority list.

[jimf43 0]

Originally posted by Dapper Dan:

Quote:

I'll be perfectly honest with new or potential users of Linux: Just because something is new, DOES NOT mean it is better! There are still issues that must be ironed out with the 2.6 kernel. If you want to go with Linux, go with something that at least has some history behind it. Then, once you have the basics down, you can start checking out distros and versions that are more cutting edge. I still use Fedora Core 1, and will continue to do so until it is clear to me that Core 2 is ready for prime time.

You bring up an interesting point. I'm running SimplyMepis2004.rc2 and the 2.6.7 kernel with wonderful results 'on my hardware', but, some testers are experiencing problems that are not currently resolvable. Sound system, connectivity (especially with wireless) and mouse/keyboard can still be problematic. With beta, those are the risks you take

 

We would like to have the final release to contain only the 2.6.x kernel, but so far it looks as if the 2.4 kernel may have to remain as an option. rc2 shows promise of being a kickass distro, but, a new user should always use the (2003.10 in Mepis) stable first to get oriented.

[blackpage 0]

In defense of Mandrake

 

Last things first: The very best about Linux is that everybody has the freedom of choice. The freedom to choose and also to dismiss any distro in case it doesn't fulfill the expectations of the respective user.

 

It feels very uncomfortable to read that some knowledgable folks here tend to exclude MDK from their attention on this forum. I came here a few months back cause I needed to ask a question concerning the usage of MDK in a desktop environment. And I was helped, and I was helped maybe because this forum back then still was "linuxcompatible.org", and not "fedoracompatible.org" nor "mepiscompatible.org" nor "anyotherspiffydistrocompatible.org".

 

I'm following the threads here too and from what I can see it's the users of "special" hardware who usually have a bad time. This mostly means "wireless", or "mobility", or "freaky soundcard", or "notebook" in general. I'm not joining the choir who so steadily claims "get the f*** informed before you buy hardware". But hardware incompatability is a term every wanna-be linux-user should get familiar with when he/she plans to make a step towards this OS.

 

Here is how things turn out from my point of view, and just to fill you in: I run a company that deals with network related software and multimedia-content development. And wouldn't you know it, we have issues almost every week with some pieces and bits of hardware - inhouse and with our customers' machines - not being properly supported by whatever OS we use.

 

Now, would anybody say Windows XP is a crap OS because you can't get drivers for (let's say) the Emagic Audiowerks8 sound card that would allow you to further use the sound-recording software you paid a fortune for? Would anybody say XP's a bad OS just because in the past certain nVidia drivers would not let you view DVDs on TV-out with WinDVD? I doubt that, and if you have to, you can say XP's a crappy OS for this and that reason, but not because some hardware or software manufacturer is unwilling to provide decent hardware, drivers or applications.

 

Would it be legitimate to say any linux distro is not worth the effort cause some gfx-card vendor decides to twiddle around with their GPUs til they can't recognize them themselves? As it goes for this matter it is -e.g.- ATI and their "Mobility" nightmares who are unable to provide hardware you can rely upon to 100%, but it's certainly not linux that lacks anything.

 

So what exactly is Mandrake to be blamed for? Why not blame manufacturers for patching together something that is unsatisfactorily tested and far from being flawless but yet and still selling it as the "notebook of the year"?

 

And in further defense of Mandrake, especially MDK10: We have always used linux servers, all right. Suse in the beginning and ever since a few years or so our choice was Debian. This year we made the step to also migrate to linux on the desktops where this was possible. Many distros have been tested thoroughly, amongst those Suse, Knoppix, Debian, Fedora, Gentoo and Mandrake. None of the above was perfect, and none of the above was really bad.

 

But counting the score after the tests, where our focus was on aspects that deal with the demands of a productivity environment (installation and stability of software like Audacity, Gimp, Blender, VMWare, OpenOffice, Eclipse, KDevelop etc.) Mandrake was in the lead. And it was not the slightest margin at which MDK made it.

 

Now, 20-something desktops run under MDK without the slightest problems, most of them with dual-head setups, in a gigabit-lan environment, pushing some SMP file- and database-servers, and also some load-balanced inter/intranet servers of which most -by now- are also migrated to MDK - again, without the slightest sign of problems.

 

So for all I know is: Our MDK-puters run, and therefore we have been lucky. Not lucky to have chosen maybe the right OS, but lucky to have chosen the right hardware. Other puters won't run under Mandrake. Users of those maybe had no luck. But with MDK they still have a top-notch linux OS, they only have unreliable hardware.

 

regards

[Dapper Dan 0]

blackpage, you are obviously a very experienced user, and as such, you know how to make Mandrake 10 work for you and your people. I have Mandrake 9 working for my people right now, because I know how to make it work for us.

 

I think you have gotten the wrong idea here. This thread started by jim43 was targeted toward new users. It was pretty clear to me anyway. I think you're being a little unfair by suggesting that this forum somehow excludes Mandrake from it's (or our) attention. I can't speak for anyone else, but I can tell you I answer far more threads about Mandrake than any other distro. That was the case then and is the case now. If you have any doubts about whether Mandrake is being excluded from notice, do a search on Mandrake here and see how many times it comes up.

 

I have used every edition of Mandrake since 8.2, and *in my opinion* Mandrake 10 is not nearly as user friendly to new users as were the others when they came out, and the 2.6 kernel accounts for many of the difficulties we've been seeing. If I thought I had half a chance of convincing them when they come here, I would suggest to every new user who is interested in Mandrake to start off with "9", even more so than Fedora. But new users aren't gonna listen to that, because they want something new.

 

As you are using Mandrake 10 successfully, I hope you will continue to pitch in and help us out when a new user comes here looking for advice on "10." We sure could use the help.

 

 

 

 

[jimf43 0]

Sorry if the truth hurts blackpage.

 

Dan has stated the case very well. I also used Mandrake thru 9.1 and saw the compatability of the distro decline. I don't know why Mandrake is releasing their distro before it's fully tested, but, we see and have to deal with the results of that here. I think the financal pressures are just pushing them to release product regardless of any other considerations. Other distros have to deal with the same hardware issues but are doing a much better job with support.

 

But, since you believe in that product and have experence running it why don't you stop by more often and answer some of the 'plz hlp mes' .

[blackpage 0]

@DepperDan ...

greetings at first, and also right from the beginning I'd like to point out that it was never my intention to point at jimf43 or anybody else in a bad mood. But I'm not sure if I would subscribe to the point that I maybe misunderstood the point of the originating posting including the "sublime accusation" some distro is about to be "bullied" here

 

Basically I reduce it - and maybe this is a wrong thing to do, I admit that - to the point that Mandrake 10 at the moment is a very, very popular distro. This goes hand in hand with other factors, like e.g. a very positive echo in the media over here in Europe. With a backup like that a whole lot more people will d/l and install the distro and consequently a whole lot more people will run into trouble doing so, if they don't prepare.

 

Lemme explain with an example: Throughout the tests I've mentioned in my post we also had a look at Knoppix 3.3 and 3.4. v3.3 would install fine with the included but didn't show all the drive volumes on some machines. Knoppix 3.4 had a HD-install script aboard, that would only work if you d/led some extra libs.

 

Don't get me wrong now: I'm not trying to put Knoppix down for the benefit of Mandrake. But Knoppix - at the times then - was hot as Mandrake is hot now (and has been the last months). And whenever something's hot on the market the developers will try to satisfy the demands and consequently knit the package with a too hot needle.

 

In the case of Mandrake it was indeed what the MDK-team did to the kernel 2.6. I can wholeheartedly agree with you on that aspect, cause the MDK kernel has so many 3rd party addons and whatnotelse patched into it that propably not even Linus would recognize it anymore

 

@jimf43 ...

well, I dunno if it's the truth from my point of view, but I can assure you it does not hurt But I'm certainly not above to admit that you have shared knowledge way above average, from what I can see.

 

But lemme straighten the following out: IE and Windows had a rather bad time the last months. Security issue here, security issue there, security issues everywhere. Due to this, and with some Linux distro-Live CD being on almost every cover CD of all the very popular magazines, Linux has got almost a jump start (at least here in Europe). Since May the percentage of e.g. Firefox has increased around 12%-15%, and OS-wise Linux-usage has increased around 4%-5% compared to Jan-Apr. (from our web logs, overall: ~250k unique visitors in that timespan).

 

So couldn't it be that we just witness the very first and tender beginnings of what we had always been waiting for: Linux oozing into the desktop market (veeeery slowly though)?. I personally think that times will get even more tense in the near future. Cause every million of new Linux users will also mean a couple of thousand more noobs coming here asking questions.

 

Those won't be too much questions about Gentoo or Slackware, cause folks who do those distros usually know what they're gonna dance with. it will be the popular distros like MDK, Suse, Fedora etc. That is -as it goes for such active members like you are- indeed taxing. On the other hand, it's also good sign of the times, ain't it.

 

@both of you: have a nice sunday

 

ps: I will of course gladly help out here if there is anything to contribute, just as I did in the few months that I -gladly- take the time to stop by here

[Dapper Dan 0]

blackpage, all of your points are well taken, although a

Slack or Gentoo user might disagree about new users not going with their distro.

 

Originally posted by blackpage:

Quote:

I will of course gladly help out here if there is anything to contribute, just as I did in the few months that I -gladly- take the time to stop by here

Please come by often, and help us answer Mandrake 10 quetions. Most of the time, I have to go from memory since I don't have "10" installed right now. Your expertise would be very welcome here.

[jimf43 0]

Originally posted by blackpage:

Quote:

Lemme explain with an example: Throughout the tests I've mentioned in my post we also had a look at Knoppix 3.3 and 3.4. v3.3 would install fine with the included but didn't show all the drive volumes on some machines. Knoppix 3.4 had a HD-install script aboard, that would only work if you d/led some extra libs.

Additionally, Knoppix does not adhere to the Debian structure. Knoppix makes a fine bootable CD, but, when installed to the HD there are many problems with installation of apps.

 

Quote:

But lemme straighten the following out: IE and Windows had a rather bad time the last months. Security issue here, security issue there, security issues everywhere. Due to this, and with some Linux distro-Live CD being on almost every cover CD of all the very popular magazines, Linux has got almost a jump start (at least here in Europe). Since May the percentage of e.g. Firefox has increased around 12%-15%, and OS-wise Linux-usage has increased around 4%-5% compared to Jan-Apr. (from our web logs, overall: ~250k unique visitors in that timespan).

Unfortunately, M$ can take quite a hit and still do very nicely ;-). I don't expect Linux to catch up to Window$ desktop for about another 2-3 years. We may be seeing the start of that, but, many issues have to be resolved before it happens. Hardware compatibility is only a part of it.

 

Quote:

So couldn't it be that we just witness the very first and tender beginnings of what we had always been waiting for: Linux oozing into the desktop market (veeeery slowly though)?. I personally think that times will get even more tense in the near future. Cause every million of new Linux users will also mean a couple of thousand more noobs coming here asking questions.

I think that is already happening ;-)

 

Quote:

Those won't be too much questions about Gentoo or Slackware, cause folks who do those distros usually know what they're gonna dance with.

I don't know about that. There are a number of people working on script engine based source installation. At least in theory, this is a great concept and I think it may become the next hot item very similar to what has already happened with the Knoppix type distros. It may get 'interesting'.

 

Looking forward to seeing you here.

[jimf43 0]

Originally posted by blackpage:

Quote:

Lemme explain with an example: Throughout the tests I've mentioned in my post we also had a look at Knoppix 3.3 and 3.4. v3.3 would install fine with the included but didn't show all the drive volumes on some machines. Knoppix 3.4 had a HD-install script aboard, that would only work if you d/led some extra libs.

Additionally, Knoppix does not adhere to the Debian structure. Knoppix makes a fine bootable CD, but, when installed to the HD there are many problems with installation of apps.

 

Quote:

But lemme straighten the following out: IE and Windows had a rather bad time the last months. Security issue here, security issue there, security issues everywhere. Due to this, and with some Linux distro-Live CD being on almost every cover CD of all the very popular magazines, Linux has got almost a jump start (at least here in Europe). Since May the percentage of e.g. Firefox has increased around 12%-15%, and OS-wise Linux-usage has increased around 4%-5% compared to Jan-Apr. (from our web logs, overall: ~250k unique visitors in that timespan).

Unfortunately, M$ can take quite a hit and still do very nicely ;-). I don't expect Linux to catch up to Window$ desktop for about another 2-3 years. We may be seeing the start of that, but, many issues have to be resolved before it happens. Hardware compatibility is only a part of it.

 

Quote:

So couldn't it be that we just witness the very first and tender beginnings of what we had always been waiting for: Linux oozing into the desktop market (veeeery slowly though)?. I personally think that times will get even more tense in the near future. Cause every million of new Linux users will also mean a couple of thousand more noobs coming here asking questions.

I think that is already happening ;-)

 

Quote:

Those won't be too much questions about Gentoo or Slackware, cause folks who do those distros usually know what they're gonna dance with.

I don't know about that. There are a number of people working on script engine based source installation. At least in theory, this is a great concept and I think it may become the next hot item very similar to what has already happened with the Knoppix type distros. It may get 'interesting'.

 

Looking forward to seeing you here.

[Dapper Dan 0]

Originally posted by jimf43:

Quote:

Originally posted by blackpage:

Quote:

Those won't be too much questions about Gentoo or Slackware, cause folks who do those distros usually know what they're gonna dance with.

I don't know about that. There are a number of people working on script engine based source installation. At least in theory, this is a great concept and I think it may become the next hot item very similar to what has already happened with the Knoppix type distros. It may get 'interesting'.

 

Jim43, I think Slack and especially Gentoo are very attractive to a lot of new users who bring more than just a cursory knowledge of computing with them when they begin exploring Linux.

 

Of course Slackware has been around for a long time, and has always been popular. I tried and like Slack for it's simplicity and lack of bloat, but I don't have the patience necessary for compiling tarballs.

 

Gentoo has kind of taken the Linux world by storm, and most “Gentoovians” I'm aware of, seem to have an almost religious reverence and loyalty to their distro.

 

I've tried to understand the Gentoo install, but it just makes me more confused. The directions on Gentoo website make my brain hurt like a college calculus exam!

 

I'm sure someone is working on a version of Gentoo that will make the install much simpler just as Mepis has for Debian. When that day comes, I'm definitely gonna give Gentoo a try.

[jimf43 0]

Originally posted by Dapper Dan:

Quote:

I've tried to understand the Gentoo install, but it just makes me more confused. The directions on Gentoo website make my brain hurt like a college calculus exam!

you got that right ;-) You got to be some kind of masochist

 

Quote:

I'm sure someone is working on a version of Gentoo that will make the install much simpler just as Mepis has for Debian. When that day comes, I'm definitely gonna give Gentoo a try.

I Agree

[taeuler 0]

I havn't use this but this is an installer for Gentoo based/ported from the Anaconda installer.

http://gentoo.vidalinux.com/?q=node/view/35

 

That install will give you a base system Kernel, cron log Xfree, gcc, etc...

 

You also need to download cd 2 from the Gentoo Mirrors. This will contain binary's for kde, gnome, OO.o, etc.

 

It looks like you still have to do some work from the shell promt. This might make it easier, but it will still probably take some work. I agree that the first time you install Gentoo it deserves a -10 rating on ease of install, but having portage for package management, is in my opinion, worth the work. I would be willing to create a simplified guide in a new thread if any of you want to give it a try.

 

[Dapper Dan 0]

Yes, taeuler, that would be a very welcome thread! I would love to find out a simplified way of installing Gentoo!