GL_User 0 Posted December 4, 2005 Hi Everybody! Problem: Help OpenGL program works on Win9x but NOT on WinNTs (2000 & XP) OpenGL program works on Win9x but NOT on WinNTs (2000 & XP).On the other Hand DirectX runs fine on both Windows platforms. This post is a bit long, but please be patient, read and understand it carefully. System Specs: Abit KV8 Pro Motherboard AMD Athlon 64 3000 Nvidia GEFORCE 4 MX 440 (Latest Forceware 81.95 Installed) Creative Soundblaster Live 5.1 1024 MB (1 GB) DDR SDRAM (400 MHZ) 80 GB Hard Disk Windows XP with Service Pack 2 This problem occurs on Windows NT Platforms (2000 and any XP edition) with or without the service packs and even with or without third party programs installed. (Cadence, Macromedia, Mathlab etc.) This problem has bothered me for a long time... OpenGL programs are running with respectable frame rates (80 FPS and above) when using Windows 9x Platforms (95, 98, ME) but is running the other way around when using Win NT Platforms (3 FPS is the fastest speed I can get with OpenGL programs) I need to use Windows NT Platform (2000, All XP Editions) because some of my programs need it (Macromedia MX Software, Cadence Engineering software, etc.) DirectX on the otherhand, is working flawlessly. Solutions Applied: 1. NO OVERCLOCKING was applied on any device 2. ALL motherboard drivers were installed prior to video,sound & external device drivers. (Device Drivers: AGP, Chipser Drivers, etc.) 3. Anisotropic, Antialiasing, Vertical Sync, and OpenGL Texture Clamping and all eye candy modes were turned OFF. 4. Used the Windows 95, Windows 98 / Windows ME Compatibility modes but OpenGL programs are still very slow. 5. Used a third party program called GLDirect from SciTech soft but only got a sluggish average of 15 FPS Max from OpenGL programs. Uninstalled GL Direct 6. Went to the Nvidia Archive and downloaded all versions of Detonator & Forceware Drivers but never showed any improvement on performance. The oldest forceware that supports the GEFORCE 4 MX 440 was v 31.40. 7. After trying to install different versions (from the oldest to the latest). I used the OpenGL Info program from Delphi Tools to see the OpenGL renderer and I found out that it is using Nvidia's latest GL driver - OpenGL 1.5. 8. Used an ATI Radeon 9200 128 MB, tried installing the factory manufactured drivers and got same results on Windows XP (3 FPS MAX). Downloaded and different Catalyst drivers (oldest to the latest) and still, have the same results (3 FPS Max) 9. Tried using different types of Nvidia (GEFORCE 440 MX, FX 5200, FX 5700 & FX 5800 Ultra & Radeon Cards (9200 & 9800) but it gave me the same unacceptable 3 FPS result. Therefore, switching to different type of cards does NOT show any performance difference. * Everytime I Install a detonator / forceware driver (Nvidia), and catalyst drivers (Radeon). I always peform a clean uninstall of the previous driver installed. * The OpenGL driver from microsoft (located at Windows\System32) have nothing to do with these problem because I used different libraries from microsoft and I still get the same sluggish 3 FPS results on Windows 2000 / XP * Ironically, OpenGL programs are working on my neighbors old AMD K6-2 450 MHZ, 256 MB of SD RAM, with an ancient S3 Savage4 using Windows NT Platforms (2000 and any Windows XP programs). OpenGL works at an acceptable 35 FPS. * Nvidia & Radeon Support can only suggests using the latest drivers but unfortunately, It doesn't work. * Viruses, Worms, Trojans, Spywares absolutely don't have anything to do with these problems because these problem is already present after a clean low-level format and new software installation on the hard drive. ================================= This WinNT (2000 & any XP Edition) problem can simply happen by uninstalling a driver then re-installing it back. This problem can occur on any computer regardless of the setup. This is an example (PROOF): I tried doing the following on a different computer with following specs (this is an office computer): Intel P4 2.8 GHZ ATI Radeon 9800 128 MB 1024 MB (1 GB) DDR RAM ASUS P4C-800 Motherboard Before Un-Installing the driver. 1. OpenGL programs are running smoothly at minimum 150 FPS. 2. Used the OpenGL Info program by Delphi to identify the OpenGL renderer being used. It reported that it uses the Nvidia GL Renderer 1.5 (OpenGL 1.5) 3. Performed safety precautions (driver backup) in case problems arise after un-installing and re-installing drivers. 4. After performing steps 1, 2 & 3, I uninstalled the video driver, performed clean driver uninstallation, restarted the computer, then Installed the same driver. 5. Tried running an OpenGL program and boom! OpenGL programs are running at an unacceptable 3 FPS. 6. Performed driver rollup then OpenGL programs worked again. * I also tried doing these on a P4 1.7 Mobile computer, and I also got the same results. Also, these can happen on Win9x platforms simply by performing the following: 1. Go to Control Panel, Click System Icon, click the Advanced Tab, Then the File System button. 2. On the "...how this computer performs...", change the Desktop computer to Network Server. 3. Restart the computer 4. Try running an OpenGL program, and you'll get the impressive 3 FPS. :-\ Is there an equivalent configuration for these setting on Windows XP? If there is, changing that setting is a possibility for the problem to be solved on WinNT platforms (2000 & XP). I'm sure that I am not the only one experiencing these type of problem. Please read and understand the Post carefully so you can avoid posting a suggestion that was already performed. If you do have the following suggestions below. Please do NOT bother to post. In this way, we can avoid wasting each others time. (This were the replies that I usually get from other forums): 1. Download the Latest & Greatest Official Detonator / Forceware Drivers. 2. Nvidia Sucks! Get another card. 3. ATI Sucks! Get another card. 4. Upgrade Your computer. Add more memory, change processor then change monitor. 5. Buy 100 different Nvidia and ATI graphic cards. 6. Uninstall Mathlab (I do NOT use Mathlab) 7. Buy a new computer (My computer is not the historical 8086) 8. Reformat your computer 1,000,000 times and reinstall windows 500,000 times. 9. Erase the DVA=1 settings on your Win.ini file. (The DVA setting is only found on windows 95, 98 & ME versions and is not found on Windows 2000 / XP) 10. Read every letter, comma, period, semi-colon, exclamation mark, pictures on your motherboard and video card manual. 11. Install the latest DirectX drivers (DirectX has nothing to do with OpenGL graphics) 12. Burn your computer then buy another computer. 13. Go to GLSETUP. (One of the suggestions that I do really hate. GL Setup is already vaporized.) 14. Flash your Bios a 1,000,000 times. Load BIOS or SETUP defaults a 1,000,000 times. Then Restart a 1,000,000 times. 15. Download and install 1,000,000 different brands of Anti-Virus programs and Anti-Spyware programs. 16. Turn Off your Anti-Virus. (As I told you earlier Virus, Trojans, Adware and other destructive programs don't have anything to do with these problem). Also, Anti-Virus programs don't have anything to do with In-Game eformance, it can affect load times but NOT render times. 17. Contact Nvidia & ATI Technical support. (Read the post carefully. I already did and the only thing that they can suggest is to download the latest driver for windows 2000 / XP) 10. Search The Internet Google is your friend, Search Google. MSN is your friend, Search MSN. xxxxxxxxx is your friend, Search xxxxxxxxx. 11. Run Your Game using Windowed-Mode. (Running any OpenGL programs on Windows / Full Screen Mode doesn't show any difference. It doesn't matter if it's a game or an OpenGL dependent Graphics program. Both performs at 3 FPS MAX.) * xxxxxxxxxx points out to all Search Engine that is being suggested. * the 1,000,000 times represent the number of times that 'so-called super computer gurus' suggested these type of solutions. Problem Summary: OpenGL works very slow on Windows NT Platforms (2000 & XP) - A Maximum of 3 FPS OpenGL based programs works flawlessly when using Windows 9x Platforms (98, ME) - A Minimum of 80 FPS DirectX based programs works flawlessly on either Windows Platforms. Please read & understand the first post carefully before posting any suggestion. * Before Posting Any Suggestion, Please Make Sure your suggestion is NOT found on my first and second post. Thank You & More Power To All! Share this post Link to post
Relic 0 Posted December 4, 2005 Seems you have a real "head-banger" there, is there an imprint of your keyboard on your forehead yet? Heh heh heh. First off, I think formatting is a last resort, takes far too long to re-install everything, then go through getting all the patches/updates, a royal PITA. Next, I would never suggest "the latest and greatest" nVidia drivers for an MX440, more like get the 77.77's, the "L&G's" are optimized for the newest cards, older cards will work with them, but not very well. I have a brand new 6600GT AGP and I use the 77.77's, the newest drivers kill me. I also used the 77.77's with my ti4200, which I just upgraded from, the the "L&G" also killed that card. Get the 77.77's here: http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp_2k_77.77.html Next, you cannot get a clean uninstall of nVidia or ATI drivers, they always leave something behind, so scoop this, and run it after uninstalling the drivers: http://majorgeeks.com/Driver_Cleaner_Professional_d3214.html It works, I use it myself, there are ALWAYS files left behind after an uninstall. Next, check your BIOS for an AGP Driving Control option, if you have the option, set it to manual, then change the AGP Driving Value to "EA". This is an nVidia fix only, it works with some cards, but not all, worth a shot, it worked with my ti4200, and works with this 6600GT. As for "compatibilty mode", works with some games, no so good for others. For instance, Viper Racing runs at 43FPS in XP. Swap to '98 mode, I get 74FPS, excellent. '95 mode, 130FPS, totally unplayable, way to fast. Compatibility mode is a crap shoot in my opinion. Also, these can happen on Win9x platforms simply by performing the following: 1. Go to Control Panel, Click System Icon, click the Advanced Tab, Then the File System button. 2. On the "...how this computer performs...", change the Desktop computer to Network Server. 3. Restart the computer 4. Try running an OpenGL program, and you'll get the impressive 3 FPS. :-\ Is there an equivalent configuration for these setting on Windows XP? Same spot in XP, in the advanced tab click "Performance/Advanced", then set it so "processor scheduling" and "memory usage" are checked off for "programs". Hope something in here works for you, but one thing I have to stress, use Driver Cleaner Pro, the old nVidia drivers have to be totally removed before new ones are installed, or it's a mess. One last thing, I'm not familiar with your mobo, but if using VIA 4in1 drivers, make sure you have the right flavour, I use the older drivers myself, they just work better with my setup. Good luck, and let us know what happens, one way or the other. Share this post Link to post
Sampson 0 Posted December 4, 2005 The only thing I would add to Relic's excellent suggestions is the number of programs and processes loaded up by XP at startup could be either a memory deterent or one of those processes could be interfering or conflicting. You could try systematically disabling them to see if you can bring up your framerates. This might mean a lot of rebooting, but from what your original message says you seem to have the patience to try. Share this post Link to post
GL_User 0 Posted December 4, 2005 First, please excuse me for making quoting some lines made by all of you, I just want to point out answers on some of the suggestions made. ============================================================================================================ Quote: First off, I think formatting is a last resort, takes far too long to re-install everything, then go through getting all the patches/updates, a royal PITA. Formatting would just be a waste of time especially if you found out that the same problem will occur after performing the time-consuming reformat-reinstall process. The computer undergoed that procedure a lot of times and that solution is absolutely not helpful. ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Quote: Next, I would never suggest "the latest and greatest" nVidia drivers for an MX440, more like get the 77.77's, the "L&G's" are optimized for the newest cards, older cards will work with them, but not very well. I have a brand new 6600GT AGP and I use the 77.77's, the newest drivers kill me. I also used the 77.77's with my ti4200, which I just upgraded from, the the "L&G" also killed that card. Quote: Get the 77.77's here: http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp_2k_77.77.html I don't know if you read carefully the first post that I made. Under the "Solutions Applied:" part, number 6, I will quote that part. Quote: 6. Went to the Nvidia Archive and downloaded all versions of Detonator & Forceware Drivers but never showed any improvement on performance. The oldest forceware that supports the GEFORCE 4 MX 440 was v 31.40. That means that I already tried installing forceware drivers from versions 31.40 up to 81.95. Of course, I performed a Clean driver uninstall before applying each of these drivers. ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Quote: Next, you cannot get a clean uninstall of nVidia or ATI drivers, they always leave something behind, so scoop this, and run it after uninstalling the drivers: http://majorgeeks.com/Driver_Cleaner_Professional_d3214.html It works, I use it myself, there are ALWAYS files left behind after an uninstall. Already tried that program before, and it cleans out the driver the way I manually uninstall them. From removing the drivers to the add / remove programs, to deleting values from the Registry up to the Windows System Directory. I studied the driver structure of these driver installers and I can tell you that I can perform a clean uninstall of the Nvidia / ATI drivers without driver cleaner. Although, using the Driver Cleaner makes the job a lot more easier. Bottomline, I still experience the same OpenGL problem... ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Quote: Next, check your BIOS for an AGP Driving Control option, if you have the option, set it to manual, then change the AGP Driving Value to "EA". This is an nVidia fix only, it works with some cards, but not all, worth a shot, it worked with my ti4200, and works with this 6600GT. I already have done that before, unfortunately adjusting the AGP driving Control Option to manual and changing the AGP Driving value to EA did NOT show any change to any of the Nvidia Cards I used. ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Quote: Same spot in XP, in the advanced tab click "Performance/Advanced", then set it so "processor scheduling" and "memory usage" are checked off for "programs". That's the first solution that came in my mind the first time I found out about this problem. If you are sure this is the Windows XP equivalent of the "how this computer performs" from Windows 95 / 98 / ME. Well, it did NOT work. ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Quote: One last thing, I'm not familiar with your mobo, but if using VIA 4in1 drivers, make sure you have the right flavour, I use the older drivers myself, they just work better with my setup. I use the chipset drivers in the CD that came with the motherboard. I checked the Motherboards website to see if there are updates and I found out that the ones available on their website is the same with the ones that came with the Motherboard. These drivers work fine under Win9x Platforms. I believe that Factory Manufactured drivers is the best thing to use because all the hardware that I have purchased works fine when using the Factory Manufactured Drivers & of course, manufacturers know their products better than anyone else. ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Quote: ...the number of programs and processes loaded up by XP at startup could be either a memory deterent or one of those processes could be interfering or conflicting. You could try systematically disabling them to see if you can bring up your framerates. This might mean a lot of rebooting, but from what your original message says you seem to have the patience to try. At first, What I did was just to install ONLY the Operating System, motherboard chipset drivers & basic device drivers, then I started disabling services simultaneously / at the same time from the Administrative Tools section, I also looked for settings / unusable configurations under the MSConfig option and tried disabling them all... I'm looking and is still looking for clues on what service / program / system process triggers this problem... It's really a big puzzle for OpenGL to work smoothly on this computer using Windows 9x Platforms (98,ME) and running the otherway around (very slow, very sluggish - 3 FPS) on Windows NT Platforms (2000, All XP Edition). Anyway, Thanks for having the patience to read my first post. Of course, I'm open for more optimistic suggestions. Always refer to my first post and succeeding posts before posting your suggestion. Thank You & More Power To All! Share this post Link to post
American Zombie 0 Posted December 5, 2005 Have you tried using Omega drivers? Share this post Link to post
Relic 0 Posted December 5, 2005 I'm with American Zombie, time to go to "aftermarket" drivers. I also found these older generic OpenGL drivers, don't know if they would help(I doubt it could hurt). Seems the forums are not working at Voodoo Files, would be a good place to ask advice, if the forums were up and running. Anyhow: http://www.voodoofiles.com/7564 There are several tweaking programs out there, I use NVTweak, the newest version of "Coolbits", although it doesn't give me OpenGL settings while using the 77.77 drivers. http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=911 RivaTuner is far more advanced, and will let you tweak the OpenGL settings bigtime, another you may want to try out: http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=163 nVHardPage is another, with OpenGL settings: http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=362 From what I've read, unless you are using two monitors, make sure the OpenGL settings specify there is only one monitor, seems to be a bug with OpenGL and poor performance. It also seems that M$ has given up on OpenGL "hardware" support, they only offer software support now, because, well, they want everyone to use D3D, they do own DX afterall, go figure. x) Anyhow, keep us updated, hope we can help you find a solution. Share this post Link to post
GL_User 0 Posted December 5, 2005 Again, Please excuse me for making quoting some lines made by all of you, I just want to point out answers on some of the suggestions made. ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Quote: Have you tried using Omega drivers? I tried using this program and it is similar to a third-party program that I used. The NVTweak Coolbits 3D, these two work almost the same way: Offerring hidden options like Overclocking & AGP speed, this works on all forceware versions of the nvidia drivers, it also enables the Direct3D and OpenGL options if you are using the drivers from Nvidia Versions 69.xx and below. Although I have observed that the Omega drivers are buggy especially when I enable the Nvidia Taskbar Panel. - the resolution switches to 640x480 8 bit colormode everytime I access the display properties under the Taskbar Panel, so the only thing to avoid this problem is to disable the Taskbar Panel and use the advanced panel under Windows Display Properties. Anyway, after using the Omega drivers, OpenGL still works the same old sluggish way at an impressive 3 FPS under WinNT's (2000 and all XP Editions) ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Quote: I also found these older generic OpenGL drivers, don't know if they would help(I doubt it could hurt). Seems the forums are not working at Voodoo Files, would be a good place to ask advice, if the forums were up and running. Anyhow: http://www.voodoofiles.com/7564 If you remember, this line is from my first post, under the solutions applied section: Quote: * The OpenGL driver from microsoft (located at Windows\System32) have nothing to do with these problem because I used different libraries from microsoft and I still get the same sluggish 3 FPS results on Windows 2000 / XP Microsoft has the OpengGL 1.1 libraries included with Windows 98 & above, then Voodoo offers the older OpenGL 1.0 Library. Bottomline, Changing the OpenGL libraries have nothing to do to solve the problem. ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Quote: There are several tweaking programs out there, I use NVTweak, the newest version of "Coolbits", although it doesn't give me OpenGL settings while using the 77.77 drivers. http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=911 I already tried this 3rd party driver months ago. NVTweak was the first third party program I used, first I remember doing the classic CoolBits Registry Mod, then I downloaded and installed the NVTweak Coolbits 3D. It enabled more options like the overclocking feature and AGP settings. I already tried using the settings for maximum performance, but unfortunately, OpenGL programs under WinNT's (2000 and all XP Editions) are still running at 3 FPS Max. ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ RivaTuner is far more advanced, and will let you tweak the OpenGL settings bigtime, another you may want to try out: http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=163 This program is the wizard-equivalent of changing the OpenGL libraries. I tried using different Override Settings, disabling eye-candy modes through this program. But unfortunately, turning off eye candies and using the override & emulation modes did NOT show up any difference. OpenGL programs run at an impressive rate of 3 FPS. ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Quote: nVHardPage is another, with OpenGL settings: http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=362 This program is the wizard-equivalent of changing the OpenGL libraries. If you remember, this line is from my first post, under the solutions applied section: Quote: * The OpenGL driver from microsoft (located at Windows\System32) have nothing to do with these problem because I used different libraries from microsoft and I still get the same sluggish 3 FPS results on Windows 2000 / XP Anyway, I gave this program a shot. I tried changing all OpenGL values to high performance modes and also used the emulation feature (used No emulation up to GEFORCE 5700 emulation modes). Unfortunately, OpenGL runs Bigtime at 3 FPS under WinNT's (2000 & all XP Editions). I used different Nvidia drivers (31.40 up to 81.95) with these program. ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Quote: From what I've read, unless you are using two monitors, make sure the OpenGL settings specify there is only one monitor, seems to be a bug with OpenGL and poor performance. I am not using more than two monitors and the Video card is only set at Single-Display Mode, Therefore, NO auxilliary video outputs are enabled. ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Quote: It also seems that M$ has given up on OpenGL "hardware" support, they only offer software support now, because, well, they want everyone to use D3D, they do own DX afterall, go figure. x) If you remember, this line is from my first post, under the solutions applied section: Quote: * The OpenGL driver from microsoft (located at Windows\System32) have nothing to do with these problem because I used different libraries from microsoft and I still get the same sluggish 3 FPS results on Windows 2000 / XP ============================================================================================================ ============================================================================================================ Anyway, these programs work flawlessly on Win9x platforms and boosts OpenGL rendering speeds from 200 FPS to a whooping 350 FPS. But on WinNT's, , OpenGL runs at a whooping 3 FPS To All of you who read and is about to read this thread. Thanks for having the patience to read my first post. Of course, I'm open for more optimistic suggestions. Always refer to my first post and succeeding posts before posting your suggestion. Thank You & More Power To All! Share this post Link to post
GL_User 0 Posted December 12, 2005 A Weird Solution: After months of frustration, I finally found a 'solution'. As you all know, Video drivers that came from Microsoft do NOT have OpenGL drivers / support and a LOT of people do complain about these problem. My case is different. I tried doing a lot of solutions (Read my previous posts on this thread). This is the simplest solution that made OpenGL work on the AMD PC. 1. Uninstalled the latest driver from Nvidia 81.95 NT Platform driver. 2. Performed a clean uninstall of the Nvidia 81.95 NT Platform driver: (Deleted Nvidia Video Driver System files, registry entries and INF files) 3. Entered Safe Mode & used Driver Cleaner to ensure that no driver 'residue' is left behind. 4. Reinstalled the Microsoft Nvidia Driver that came from Windows XP Service Pack 2. 5. Of course, I restarted the PC. I left the PC for about 10 minutes, suddenly I remembered that the Screen Saver on the PC is OpenGL based, when I came back, to my surprise, I saw the the Screen Saver (Polygons) is working at high speed. Well, I was NOT satisfied with what I saw so I tried running GLInfo. As Expected, GLInfo reports that the system is using the GDI_Generic OpenGL driver from Microsoft. What is really surprising is that, GLInfo reports that it is running at 200 FPS. Meaning the GDI_Generic OpenGL renderer from Microsoft is running 197 FPS faster than using any Nvidia Official Forceware drivers (v31.40 up to v81.95) under Windows XP. I tried running OpenGL programs and Games, like Quake, Quake 2 & Quake 3, and they are running at 250 FPS using 8 player demos. All OpenGL programs are now working. I don't really understand why OpenGL programs does NOT work under Windows NT Platforms (2000, All XP Editions) when using the Official Nvidia Drivers. Same is true with the Radeon Cards. The Microsoft ATI drivers made OpenGL work under Windows XP. OpenGL programs are running at 220 FPS. The only setback was: 1. I can't use Tweaking tools like Riva Tuner, Coolbits or Nhard (for Nvidia) to increase OpenGL performance because these programs solely depend on the NVOGLNT. I'm NOT a hardcore gamer and with OpenGL programs running at 200 FPS, OpenGL life is much easier & Tweaking is NOT a top priority. What's important is that all OpenGL programs & modes are working fine using Windows NT Platforms So if anybody out there is experiencing the same problems that I have, try the solutions that I mentioned on my previous post before doing these one. Sometimes, Microsoft drivers will make things work More Power to all those people who tried to help. Thank Very Much! Share this post Link to post
Relic 0 Posted December 13, 2005 Thanks for posting the solution to your problem, I'm sure it will help someone else down the line. Props to you for finally figuring it out! Share this post Link to post
