3D stuttering on VIA chipset mobos

[tanksimpson 0]

Ever since Win2K came out, I have noticed stuttering problems in 3D games (e.g. UT, SOF, Counter-Strike) that only afflict Win2K systems with VIA motherboards (Soyo 7VCA, Abit VT6X4, MSI KT7 Pro), but not on systems with Intel BX or 815E mobos or AMD 750 mobos(Abit SE6, Asus CUSL2, Abit BX6r2, FIC SD11). The stuttering, which is worst when a new level/map has just been loaded, does not surface at all when running Win98 or WinME on any of these boards. All systems have fast CPU, fast hard drive, and 128MB RAM. Solutions that I have tried that failed: 1) Switching video cards - Geforce 256, GF2 MX, and Voodoo5 5500 (with too many driver versions to list here) all stutter; 2) Fresh Win2K SP1 installs with various versions of VIA 4in1 drivers - 4.24, 4.25a, 4.26, (even NO 4in1) all stutter; 3) Installation of Microsoft SP2 hotfix for VIA chipset - actually solves a different problem, but still stutters; 4) Installation of MS/AMD LargePageMinimum registry patch - still stutters, but at least 3Dmark2000 works now; 5)Installation of DirectX 8 - still stutters + new problems too; 6) Adjustment of myriad BIOS settings - including AGP4X/2X, AGP aperture 16MB-256MB, fast writes, AGP driving value, memory bank interleaving, VGA palette snoop, video/system BIOS cacheble, memory hole and many others - no effect on stuttering; 7) Enable/disable DMA - no help; 8) Increase swap file size by various amounts on all partitions - no effect.

 

The ONLY thing I've tried that completely FIXES the problem is moving the hard drive off the VIA on-board controller and on to a seperate PCI controller such as the Promise Ultra100 or Ultra66. This leads me to believe that the Bus Mastering (?) driver for VIA chipset, both what comes with Win2K and VIA's 4in1, is BUGGY and sub-optimal on Windows 2000. Buying a 3rd party HD controller for every VIA system I build is not a convenient option. BTW, I have seen this problem referred to elsewhere, specfically a review of the ABIT VT6X4 on a hardware review site, but the reviewer didn't know what caused the stuttering and didn't care because "Win2K is not a gamer's OS" blah blah blah! Screw that! I have sent emails to various mobo manufacturers and they were not forthcoming with solutions. I suspect that the only way this is going to get fixed is if VIA fixes it (hold breath - not). I am posting this hoping that someone out there knows of this problem and has some miraculous registry patch (or something) they can share!

[tanksimpson 0]

Addendum: my memory was faulty regarding the FIC SD11 with AMD 750 hybrid chipset, it stuttered with Geforce, but not with Voodoo3 3000 - weird.

[Down8 0]

Well, I run Win2K Server on a SY-7VCA, with no problems on my old StealthIII S540.

 

I did notice the first time I installed, the motherboard drivers funked things all the hell. The next install I did, I only installed the AGP and onboard sound drivers, and haven't had any problems since - even after up[censored] to the newest 4in1s.

 

Good luck,

-bZj

 

[e]stupid auto-insert of signature[/e]

 

[ January 02, 2001: Message edited by: Down8 ]

[isaacg 0]

I have this problem too, see my post here.

[tanksimpson 0]

I read your post isaacg, and you bring up a good point I did not address - sound. Yes, without a doubt when I experience this stuttering in the frame rate of a game, I also experience "hiccups" in the sound! For example, I am running along in a Counter-Strike map and I fire a shot - the frame rate seizes up and I will hear the shot replay 3 or 4 times, even though I only pulled the trigger once. I experience this "hiccuping" with SBLive! Value, Ensoniq AudioPCI, and VIA onboard sound - I do not think the sound card is to blame. A question: at the moment that your sound burps, do you notice the hard drive LED blinking briefly, as if the hard drive was being accessed?

[EddiE314 0]

been having that problem as well, i got an ABit VH6 with an overclocked 667 Celeron and a GeForce 2, there's a patch you can download from the microsoft site under windows 2000 downloads, i'll post a link as soon as i find it again.

[EddiE314 0]

Below has been copied from Microsoft's website:

------------------------

 

VIA AGP Chipset Driver Update

This update resolves the "Video Hangs When Running 3-D Graphics Programs" vulnerability in Windows 2000. When you run a program that uses 3-D Accelerated Graphics Port (AGP) on a Windows 2000-based computer that uses the VIA AGP chipset, your computer may stop responding. This vulnerability is caused by incomplete support for the VIA chipset in the Windows 2000 AGP drivers. Download now to add driver support for your VIA AGP chipset.

------------------------ http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/downloads/recommended/q261606/default.asp

------------------------

[tanksimpson 0]

Thanks for the post, EddiE314 - unfortunately this is a solution for a different problem. This patch was what I referred to as "Microsoft SP2 hotfix for VIA chipset" in my first post. It will apparently be included in Service Pack 2 when it comes out. While it does solve certain AGP related issues that can cause a 3D application to freeze up completely, it does not seem to have any effect on the "stuttering" problem, which I believe (perhaps wrongly) to be a bus mastering issue. Thank you for the link, however, as I DO believe this patch should be applied as a matter of course until Service Pack 2 is released. Here is the other "LargePageMinimum" patch I mentioned, which is specifically for AMD processors on Win2K, and should also be applied, particularly if you have problems with 3DMark 2000 crashing. Shame on me for not including links to begin with.

[EddiE314 0]

yea, sorry about that man, that was the only patch i could think of off hand that may fix the problem at hand.

[isaacg 0]

Normally I don't get stuttering at all (my harddrive is great), but I do remember noticing it some at the start of UT levels lately. ViperRacing stutters (sound) terribly, but it doesn't use the harddrive while playing. HD goes to sleep sometimes. Viper may just have problems since it's not even suppose to run in 2k. Here's my specs:

 

350mhz K6-2 on a Soyo 5EMA+ Super 7

192MB PC100 SDRAM

20GB Maxtor 7200RPM

Voodoo3 3000 AGP w/TV out

FM-801 A3D Generic Sound

3Com/USR Hardware PCI 56k

SCSI Card/Acer 620S Scanner

Plextor 8/4/32 Burner @ 8X NEC

Antec HX08 Full Tower w/300W PS

[~Aragorn~ 0]

one or two points

1. the sound crackiling was an MVP3 prob, my KT133 doesn't do it and ive comfirmed this with many people

2. A few folk have mentioned when running games under win2k with admin status they run like sh1te although ive never really noticed this i know others have so u could try that 3. What modes were the harddisks in ie UDMA 33/66(i have 2 hdds but they are on the highpoint raid controller in UDMA 100 on my abit kt7raid so maybe it would stutter if i used the via but i never had any 3d stuttering on my mvp3 only sound!!)

if none of this works - try an abit KT7-Raid and see what happens - maybe u are just really picky and btw 128mb is actuall quite low for win2k and id really consider 128mb a minimum for gaming with that os

 

-----------

Duron 800 @ 1000

ABit KT7-RAID

256mb super sh1tey PC100 CAS 3 RAM

GeForce DDR

SB LIVE! Player 1024

Hollywood +

Hauppauge WinTV GO!

2 Linksys NIC's

20Gig IBM 40GV

Pioneer DVD-105s

Mitsumi CR2801-TE

[isaacg 0]

I tried playing a mp3 while copying a 300mb file (copy and paste in explorer) and it didn't even hicup. 320kbps mp3 too. So not sure if it has anything to do with bus. Or maybe my problem isn't the same as yours.

[tanksimpson 0]

Aragorn, I think you are definately right that if I put my Duron 650 on an Abit KT7-Raid's Highpoint 370 controller, the problem would disappear, just as it did when I installed the Promise Ultra100 on my KT7 Pro. Also, I do remember reading about a problem when playing SOF with Admin status; I don't remember the details, but I do know that they fixed it a while ago with a patch. I have tried upping the memory on the Soyo 7VCA (P3-667EB) and the KT7 Pro (Duron 650) to 192MB but it didn't make one bit of difference. Remember that I've also got Win2K running on a CUSL2 with only 128MB and P3-700E that runs these games as smooth as silk, all the other hardware being equal. I should point out that although the 7VCA and KT7 Pro have different northbridges (Apollo Pro 133A and KT133 respectively), they have the same exact southbridge, the 686A. I should also mention that when I run CPU, memory, hard drive, and 3D benchmarks with Sisoft Sandra and 3DMark2000, all three machines perform quite well, as expected. Since the only times I notice anything wrong is when I play games, maybe what I need to do is contact tech support at the game companies - who knows, maybe they'll know what's up. As soon as I have time, I'm going to reinstall Win2K on the Soyo box, and try out the games as a normal user, rather than admin. I'm curious to see if it makes any difference.

[iGGy 0]

In the past month I've gone from my Asus CUSL2 to an Abit VP6 dual board and back to my CUSL2 because of the problem with the AGP on VIA boards. (Using a GF2)

 

I use SCSI and have nothing connected to the High Point controller so any issues with that shouldn't affect me. But it still stutters to what is an unacceptable level no matter how many combinations of installation I tried. So I'm back to my old hardware and everything runs smoothly.

 

From now on I'm steering clear of any VIA based boards (don't have anything to do with AMD stuff, so no problem there) and will see what appears in the next few months to try and get my dual system going once again.

 

Also the USB was very poor as well, so that was another nail in the coffin for the VP6.

 

Nice try, but not quite...

[EddiE314 0]

but why do i get this problem then, i have an Intel CPU, are there any patches for that? i get it too at the start of levels on Heavy Metal FAKK 2, kind of annoying but it clears up after a few seconds, lots of hiccups here, just wish i could fix it.

 

[This message has been edited by EddiE314 (edited 05 January 2001).]

[tanksimpson 0]

EddiE314, I feel your pain! I just checked out the specs for the VH6 at www.abit-usa.com and sure enough it uses the dreaded 686A southbridge. VIA has been using this southbridge for both their AMD and Intel chipsets. Unless we find a fix, all I can recommend is that you swap the VH6 out for a motherboard based on the Intel 815E chipset such as the Asus CUSL2 or the new Abit SA6R, or you can try what I did and put your hard drive on separate PCI controller like the Promise Ultra100 (about $30-$40). Like iGGy says, this problem does not exist on the Asus CUSL2, and I suspect that other 815E boards will be fine, too. iGGy seems to think that its still an AGP related problem, and he might be right - there are so many variables in this kind of problem its hard to say with any certainty.

 

iGGy, thanks for the heads up on the VP6. I am sad to hear this board is a dud, but I am not surprised.

[EddiE314 0]

awww man! that really sucks. not in the mood for another mobo, i don't really want to go buy a controller card, doesn't cost too much though. I'll think about it, the VP6 sucks?!?! damnit, i was going to buy that, can you give a little more info on why its a dud?

 

[This message has been edited by EddiE314 (edited 06 January 2001).]

[iGGy 0]

EddiE, here's a description (the main points)of my experiences with the VP6 and the issues that I felt justified my reasons for going back to my Intel based system.

 

Just to lay the ground, this CUSL2 system runs a P3 700 @ 933 with Crucial CAS2 RAM and is 100% stable. I use SCSI based on an Adaptec 29160 card handling a single Seagate Cheetah X15 hard drive and various CD's etc.

 

First off the VP6 has a problem with the 160-based cards and you have to disable CD booting in the cards BIOS or run with the Win2k CD in so it times out and then uses the hard drive...not the best of starts then!

After installing WinMe and 2000, plus the various drivers and fixes, it was time to run a few tests at the default CPU speed of 700MHz. Pretty poor generally. Now I'm not one that goes in for benchmarks in a big way, I prefer the 'feel' of the system to the user. I had already done the memory interleaving and that proved to be quicker than the score with the CUSL2, so that was one thing in its favour. The general speed of the SCSI seemed slower though...I know this is all very subjective.

Thought at this point I'd crank up the CPU's to a higher level. I knew that this would be difficult because I couldn't get the stepping versions I wanted in time and didn't really hold out much hope for 933. The board would boot at 933 and even run Windows, but I'd get freezes after a short while. Adjusting the core voltage past the 1.75 I'd already set had no effect on stability. I took out the CPU's and tested them individually in another board and found that one was good for 933, the other wasn't up to it. Another step backwards for the VP6 is the inability to have independent core voltage setting for the CPU's (not really relevant in my case, but could be for other CPU's).

 

So I left it at 700 with the memory running at 133. Now too using the thing.

 

As a general workstation under Win2K I had no real issues. I think that I noticed a few more lockups with IE but that's not exactly a true reflection on stability!

The major problem came with games. Under either OS all of the games that had previously run smoothly were now subject to stuttering and frequent crashes. Without going into too much detail, I'm using a GeForce GTS2 and Det 6.47's. With 4X AGP set in the BIOS it was the kiss of death to any game and tweaking the Fast Writes value had no effect. Any game using Force Feedback with a USB controller (Joystick or steering wheel) would also result in crashes and huge video slow downs.

 

After a week of fiddling I decided to go back to the CUSL2. Using the exact same drivers and system speed settings I tested the games. No video slow downs, no crashes and what seems better SCSI interaction.

 

So I'm back at 933, running AGP at 4X and got all my games turned up to full detail at 10 x 7...plus my 3Dmark is back to 7600+ without overclocking the GeForce (will tweak that later on). I've had no freezes with IE and I've also been able to put one of my PCI cards back because of the extra slot on the CUSL2 (VP6 only has 5). Another thing about the CUS board is that I find the BIOS IRQ handling the best I've ever experienced. I always have more things sharing IRQ's on Abit boards than any others I've used for some strange reason.

 

I've not given up on the VP6 and will use it in something else, but I'm less than impressed with its overall stock performance. I'll try it with some CPU's that I know can hit 933 in a month or two and also hope that Abit come out with a better BIOS (like fix the SCSI bug..oh and remove the spelling error from the initial boot screen!)

 

More ideally I'll get my hands on a good Intel based dual board...now that sounds like a proper solution to me.

[tanksimpson 0]

<Depression sets in> I just read through two months of posts at the forum on www.viahardware.com and although I have come across several references to the problem, nobody seems to have *the answer*. I always prefer a "fix" to a "workaround", but a workaround is all I've got for now. I found a cheap Ultra66 card (about $30) to put on the Soyo 7VCA, and it runs smooth now, too. BTW, when I emailed Soyo about this issue, they just sent me a friendly, but canned, "Check your connections and reboot" type of reply - lame! I can't wait for M$ to kill off Win9X completely so us NT/2000 users can get some proper support.

[EddiE314 0]

my friend wants to know if he should still buy a vp6, its not going to be really used as a gaming box, but more like a workstation/powerhouse type of deal, is it a good investment. he's never had a dual processor system yet and he likes Abit boards, i just don't want to have to be the one to tell him that it's a crappy mobo.

[iGGy 0]

Would I recommend the VP6...phew, feel the pressure.

 

I'd have to say no. Plus I don't put Abit in my top three of preferred suppliers.

 

If he wants a serious dual system for a workstation, then look at the existing boards based on Intel chipsets.

[EddiE314 0]

can you suggest a few, i'd love to see one that will run celerons, so would he, but he'll settle for pIII's (FCPGA's)